In this episode of NDO Podcast we visit with Kevin Sedivec and Miranda Meehan, North Dakota State University researchers and professors in the School of Natural Resource Sciences, about using virtual fencing for grazing management. We discuss their economic and biological findings, challenges and promising future applications.
Cayla: Welcome to episode 91 of the NDO Podcast. On this episode, we have two folks with us from NDSU. Anything you want to say about that? Casey?
Casey: Go, bison.
Cayla: Um, that. Yeah, we're just going to talk a little bit about some of the research they have going on in the Range science department and some of the research centers and then dive into specifically one study on virtual fencing, so should be a good one. Uh, Kevin, we can just start with you. So we've got Kevin Sedivec. If you just want to talk about your title, background, whatever it all started in…
Kevin: Well, first I gotta say I finally made the podcast. Yeah, 91 episodes. So it's a pleasure to be here today.
Casey: Well, that and Kevin was the first person that gave me an opportunity at a job in this field.
Kevin: He owes me everything he's done.
Cayla: Oh, really? Okay. You know, because Kent said the same thing. I know, so which one do we credit?
Kevin: Kevin was first.
Cayla: Okay.
Kevin: So no, it was fun. No. Uh, so I've been at NDSU actually, since 1989 as the extension rangeland management specialist. And, um, it's been my role for the last 36 years. And within that I grew, of course, and became my professor role in 94. And so I've been always within the the animal science department initially, and then the School of Natural Resource Sciences. And of course, my goal is to do extension programing to teach about range and grazing management, and I'm a big conservation person, so I always try to look at the conservation benefits or how it impacts conservation with grazing strategies. And then um, 2016 actually, I became the director for Central Grasslands Research Extension Center near Streeter. Um, and so I got I got free rein to do a lot of research and look at grazing strategies. And, um, we almost always look at conservation. How does it impact conservation? If we can create grazing strategies that enhance livestock production and can produce more birds and bees and butterflies, it's a win win for both. So that's really been my push the last 35 years of my career.
Cayla: I'm assuming you're from North Dakota, Kevin?
Kevin: I am from North Dakota. I am from Mandan, North Dakota, go Braves.
Cayla: Okay. Homeland. Yeah.
Casey: Brought him home.
Cayla: Yep. And then we have Miranda Meehan, who has several titles. So I'll let you cover them all, but. Yeah.
Miranda: Yeah. Um, so I am the extension, livestock and environmental stewardship specialist and an associate professor in the School of Natural Resource Sciences, recently moved over from animal sciences as well as our Extension Disaster Education Coordinator, which I've been doing since 2020. I've been my other role since 2015, so almost 11 years at NDSU in an academic position. Um, did all my degrees at NDSU similar to Casey. My first job. Kevin. Um, and so that's how.
Kevin: I was her advisor for grad school.
Cayla: Nice.
Miranda: Yeah. And, um.
Kevin: At least one of our degrees.
Miranda: Really went to probably be here without going to range camp as a 13-year-old and being introduced to range and grazing systems and grazing management, and really combines my two loves of livestock, cattle and plants. So it's it's never boring. Um, especially in extension, um, I think we, we have the ability to do lots of really cool research that's applied that's helping answer conservation questions. Answer producer questions. Increase resilience of our agricultural systems in North Dakota. And so it's really been fun doing the different types of research that my team does to help answer some of those questions.
Cayla: Yeah, I feel like with extension, it feels like research that's really applicable to, you know, sometimes our research is very species focused or um, you guys are really like what's gonna be applicable on the ground.
Casey: Landscape.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: Mhm. So you mentioned Streeter Extension and the one up by Minot. Where else I know there's more.
Kevin: Sure. There's actually seven RECs in North Dakota. Um, central grassland is the primary grazing grassland research station. I say that, but Dickinson Research Extension Center also does some grazing work. Um, and their focus is, is a lot on on livestock cropping systems, soils. And then of course, Hettinger, probably one of the oldest RECs, focuses on sheep production. Um, but they have our really our only, wildlife biologists scientists in the state.
Cayla: Yeah. He beat you on.
Kevin: Did he, Ben Geaumont beat me on?
Casey: Yeah. He did. He was on
Cayla: Really, yeah.
Kevin: Dr. Geaumont was actually my PhD student, and so.
Cayla: He's takin’ a lot of credit.
Kevin: I know.
Casey: Right?
Kevin: Yeah, but you weren't my.
Cayla: Yeah.
Kevin: But between Hettinger and then you also have Minot, which is the North Central rec, which is their focus is agronomy. And they just hired a new forage specialist about five years ago. So they got that forage twist. And then Williston REC is a lot of agronomy, they have their own irrigated one of the only irrigated sites. And then of course, we've got Carrington, which is our largest REC and more multidiscipline. They do crops and livestock, horticulture, grapes. And I'm missing one of them.
Miranda: Langdon.
Kevin: Well, and there's Langdon. Langdon. Langdon. We think Langdon, which is way up north. Um, of course, I had an elk tag up there this year but.
Cayla: We'll have to get into that.
Kevin: Yeah, they're really known for their research in canola plant pathology and canola. And then the Oakes research station, which is tied to Carrington as well. And we can't remember. Can't forget Casselton. Casselton is our agronomy seed farm, which is one of our only RECs that's funded by its own income.
Cayla: Oh, cool.
Kevin: It's kind of a unique.
Casey: Yeah, and we have game and fish has partnered with numerous of those throughout the years on different things, like the one up in Williston. We partner with some cropping stuff on our WMAs and things that to get some food plots planted and stuff. But yeah, so it's been a it's been a unique partnership in some cases. And, and a lot of learning that goes on between.
Kevin: Some of them are over 100 years old now. Yeah, a long time.
Cayla: Do you have any good college Casey stories? Maybe he's not the right person to ask.
Kevin: Well, I don't know.
Casey: I don't think he does.
Kevin: Casey was like one of his first jobs, and he was a field tech. And I loved Casey's work ethic. That's always reminded me of...
Casey: I'd get up in the morning.
Kevin: He worked hard, and if we got to do any kind of nest dragging with birds, he was there and he loved his birds and he was this cowboy looking guy that loved birds, which is kind of unique, especially going back. What was it, 20 years? 20 years. But now.
Casey: Yeah?
Cayla: He prefers not to say.
Casey: Maybe a little more.
Kevin: But, uh. Yeah, it was just fun to. I kind of forget sometimes you hire so many students and grad students, but you never forget Casey, so. And he was always a big bison fan, so.
Casey: Yeah.
Cayla: Nice. What kind of elk tag did you have? I guess we'll diverge a little bit.
Kevin: I had a weird year. I got I got turned 60 years old, so I figured, well, I'm going to just apply for cows. So I got drawn for a cow elk tag and I got drawn for a cow moose tag.
Cayla: That happens to a lot of people when they switch to cow. Yeah, double whammy.
Kevin: But and the moose was not challenging. It was fun. I enjoyed the moose hunt and I saw 20 moose and I got a beautiful cow. The elk was a different ball game up in the northeast. They they're very nocturnal. Um, they don't move during the day. And you got to be the right place, the right time. And of course, I saw a bull. I could have shot a bull. Yeah, but I didn't. Didn't get a cow.
Casey: They know you have the tag. That's why.
Cayla: It's like the hardest tag in the big game tag in the state or whatever. Cow. Elk.
Casey: To fill.
Cayla: Yeah, not to draw.
Kevin: The landowners tell you too oh, you should have had a bull tag.
Casey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kevin: You know, but I still had a good time. I got to visit with a lot of landowners and connections, and it's just fun to be out there, as you know? And just. You don't get to fill all your tags, right? That's why they call it hunting right?
Cayla: That's right. Plus, what would you have done with a cow or a moose and an elk? It's a lot of meat.
Kevin: Full was already full.
Cayla: Yeah.
Kevin: Moose, the cow is probably well over 1,000 pounds, so.
Cayla: Yeah. Mhm.
Casey: Yeah. They're a big critter. When you get them down on the ground and walk up to them. Most people don't realize that.
Cayla: You must have filled out our survey too because I didn't see him on the naughty list.
Casey: Yeah.
Cayla: We just got a list of people that’s like does anyone know these people? Because we haven't gotten their surveys back.
Kevin: I filled them both out. I actually took the jaw off and everything. Did that as well. I can tell you a story, but we won't have time for that.
Cayla: But we got time for that.
Casey: We got all kinds of time.
Kevin: So our professor in animal science wanted the the uterus from the cows. And so when we after we we started breaking down the animal, I had to go in and take out the uterus and the ovaries and the follicles. And so I did my manicuring and got everything out. And once I pulled it out, I was like, I was just shocked at the size of the follicular horns. They were swollen. They were big. And so then I got excited. And so so we started taking everything out. And then we she had three follicles. So then I put the follicles in formaldehyde and took the follicular horns. And there were like six inches long and put them in a different bag. And in the end, um, brought her all back to Fargo and they did some work on her, and she actually was bred by about two days. I thought she, I figured she was in in heat, but yeah, I knew that was going on there. And then in the end. So she actually was bred.
Casey: Well, it's interesting cause like we some of the research we've done on our moose in North Dakota, the pregnancy rates are, are super high, like 90% plus 95%, like up in there. And I'm like, I put all my cows in one fence with the bull where they can't get away and I can't get that high of a pregnancy. You know, it's like, it's crazy to think that they gotta find each other across the landscape, and we're hitting that kind of pregnancy rate on the moose, you know?
Cayla: That is crazy.
Casey: Yeah.
Kevin: It was fun though. I enjoyed the opportunities.
Casey: Mhm. Yeah. Good. We got you guys here because we want to talk about virtual fencing a little bit. There's some unique things going on with that. One thing I think I saw is one of the first companies to come out with it. They're from Scandinavia I believe, Norway. And they did it. They did it for goats to start with. I've got goats. And let me tell you, if this would work, it would save a lot of expense on fencing.
Kevin: It will work, not 100%, but it'll work.
Casey: The problem with goats is it only takes about 15 seconds to strip an apple tree.
Kevin: Oh, yeah and we all know when one girl gets out, they all get.
Casey: Oh, yeah, yeah. But anyway, this virtual fencing stuff is kind of starting to be the norm. I've seen a few guys that are using it, but.
Kevin: Yeah.
Cayla: Have you. Yeah. Are there any, are there any like private producers so. Or what's the price tag?
Casey: So Missouri, Nebraska has some. But do we have some in.
Miranda: We pulled some numbers from the companies that we're working with. Um, because we have pretty good relationships with all the companies that are in North America. And there are currently 11 producers in North Dakota that are using virtual fence.
Cayla: Cool.
Miranda: And that doesn't include the ranch who is working with us on a research project.
Kevin: And we must have 23 different herds using virtual fence throughout North Dakota on our on our North Dakota state trials.
Miranda: So yeah, we had on our trials, we had over 500 cows collared through different phases of our grazing season between our rangeland season long well not season long grazing, but during the grazing season traditional grazing season. But we also had some integrated crop grazing that we're doing with virtual fence too.
Casey: One thing that I've thought of is like, man, for places like the Badlands or stuff like that, where fencing is a real chore. I mean, not that it's not a chore where you get flatter, but.
Cayla: See, he's getting lazy. All those years of hard work.
Casey: Well, I was just thinking today what I'd give for a day off to just go fencing if the weather would warm up, actually. But but, uh. But yeah, it could be a real benefit in some of those places, mountainous.
Kevin: It is. And, you know, between Miranda and I, we've probably given 30 to 40 different talks on virtual fencing, and and, um, there's two questions producers ask you is how does it work? And then what's the cost? And then there's these hidden things you got to think about is will it actually work in your country. Because you have to have a connectivity to the cell tower versus one way or the other. And then you got to get that, that area that fits and then know how to build it. So it does work. I've seen it work in mountainous countries. Just a matter how you lay it out, you know. So for producers, it's it comes down to efficiency, cost efficiency. And in the end labor is going to be always our limiting factor seems like. And so that's where the plus on it is is it does you can I've seen Miranda do it on her and her kids on the computer. And they build a fence on the computer and it lays it all out there and you think, geez, how does that work? You know, but it it just ties from the collars on the cow, and and it connects to the tower, and the tower connects to your cell phone or your computer and, and it creates a fence and it simple terms is the collar around the cow's neck. They're trained to audio learn sound first and then it's shock and it's like an electric fence. If they go into the the stimulus zone, they're going to get shocked like electric fence. And that turns them around. There is training included in this. You can't just put collars on a cow and think it’s going to know what it's doing, because you're training them to learn through the audio signal. They learn audio. I don't want to get shocked. They turn around. And that's really simple how it works. It's it's a cool technology that's not that difficult for a producer to actually.
Casey: We've been using dog collars for a long time.
Miranda: Yeah. The challenge I think that we have seen in mountainous country is depending what there's different products, different. Some of them use cell, some of them use um, radio towers to connect and have a base station then. And it really is going to depend on your coverages. And depending on on mountainous areas, you're going to have to have multiple base stations unless you have good cell coverage, which probably not likely, but it is a lower level of cell coverage. You just need to be able to send and receive a text. Um, and then placement is really critical. You want to make sure you're thinking about how those animals move and not putting fences at the bottom of a ravine or ridge, because once they get over, they're not going to want to turn around and go back up. And so placement is one of those things. Just like a normal fence, you have to think that through. What's going to be the most effective way to manage those animals to achieve your goals.
Casey: Mhm. Okay. So the research stuff you guys are, are working on what what's all.
Cayla: I know I was like, I have a million questions.
Casey: What’s going on with that?
Cayla: Yeah. What are the research questions I guess you're looking at?
Kevin: YeahI mean, there's a number of trials, so I got to give kudos to Ducks Unlimited. So the reason we brought virtual fence to North Dakota is me and Ryan, and Dane took a trip to Jorgensen Ranch in 2022. And because they wanted to look at the technology and I'm like, this is pretty cool stuff. And so we invested in the central grasslands and we got Miranda on board and a couple of the scientists at NDSU on board, and we wanted to look at the first question was, can we manage cattle on rangelands, um, with patch grazing? Our whole goal on some of our trials is heterogeneity grazing. Can we create patches of structure for birds and create flowers for bees and butterflies? And that was our first study we started doing in 2023. And so we got three years of data on that one now. And um, got some really cool results on that. And then the Miranda jumps. She was always on board to begin with, but she was like, we should do this with strip grazing.
Miranda: Well and I would just say it stepped back. I think we were working in parallel because I was like, I was part of a national working group on virtual fence and everybody is doing in rangeland. What can we do that's different? That applies and is applicable for our producers here in North Dakota to get the most return on investment in this technology and grazing annual forages so we can use it for longer period, not just the traditional grazing season. So I think Kevin's looking was looking at the same time. And me and Zach Carlson, who was our beef extension specialist, were like looking at it from the other angle. And I think we kind of came together and talked and we're like, yeah, we're doing this. And so we applied for some funding and got it through North Central SAR. And we're looking at it in that, that strip grazing sense of and we have three years of data on that project as well. So they're really in parallel. And I think as we look long term in our grazing systems, they work together very well because our cows could be coming off of that rangeland and going on to our annual forages, allowing extra time for those, those grasslands to recover from that grazing impact while they're more efficiently grazing those annual forges.
Cayla: Yeah, this probably seems obvious to you guys, but to some of our listeners, like just the ability to then go graze or like a stubblefield or, yeah, a little patch of grass that someone doesn't have cattle is like, yeah, go at it. But you don't want to take the time. They don't want to invest in fence for just that short period of time.
Miranda: It's also more than that. So we did a project in 2018 was our SAR project. And he's like, it's not going to work on our place. Strip grazing doesn't work. Deer run through our fences all the time. And and that was part of what inspired it was like, okay, we know there's extra labor of having to go if we're going to strip graze, to go out and put those fences up and take them down. But also there's other challenges that our producers are facing, and this might help address those challenges and get more efficient use out of that resource and give our rangelands a break.
Kevin: What's cool is you can graze almost anything. I mean, cheap feed is crop residues, right?
Casey: Right.
Kevin: And so if we can use our crop residues efficiently, strip grazing allows you to do that. And when you when you, whoever company you're going to work with, you either pay an annual fee for that or you buy the collar. So your 12 month fee, use that collar for 12 months. Don't just use it for six months. Use it on crop residue. Use it on cover crops. It's amazing how you can increase your efficiency, which means more dollars per acre for a rancher by using that crop ground and your cover crops and your rangelands way more efficient than you would do otherwise. It's just a function of is it cost effective to do it? And even that I still, for me, being 60 years old, the technology it does take a little bit of techni. Miranda is way better than I to do it. But it actually is fairly user friendly platforms today with most of these companies.
Casey: When I even think of like, you know, my kids, this is something that I could get them super involved.
Kevin: Yeah.
Casey: With. And so to get that next generation involved with something, sometimes we have to take a little chance on some of this stuff.
Cayla: But I'm sure it's not this simple. But it's crazy to think about. Just like sitting there and like, I'm gonna move my cows.
Casey: It is when you get it trained.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: So the question I had is so, like, there's a lot of people that boundary fence. Right. Like and I think in most cases these companies say you should have a boundary fence and use this for internal. Now they also say I should have four wire barbed wire fence, but I can do one hot wire with my Herefords and not have a problem. But like and so how comfortable are you, like if your cows are trained up, are you are you comfortable at all with not like a lesser boundary fence or that kind of thing?
Kevin: No.
Casey: That's a you know.
Kevin: Just because if you look at efficacy that Miranda's done most of the work on the efficacy, even if you're at 90% efficacy and you don't have a boundary fence, you're going to have cows out. And by law in terms of North Dakota's insurance policies, you have to have you have shown that you can actually keep cows in virtual fence doesn't fall that rule yet so you we recommend a border fence,
Miranda: I think.
Casey: Yeah.
Miranda: The other factor here is too, is how the technology works and understanding it. And it's it's using satellites. It's using cellular. So just like I always use an example when I'm talking with farmers and ranchers is a few years ago, nobody's autosteer worked in their tractors for a full day because of the solar activities. And so that can happen. And we with this technology too and impact its effectiveness. And talking to the companies and working through some of the things with them is they can increase their efficiency or accuracy of their GIS, but then that's going to drain our batteries. And so there's that balance of how much data can we get with the product holding up and having a battery through the grazing period.
Casey: Mhm.
Cayla: And so do the batteries last the 12 months then.
Kevin: So one company has strictly battery driven technology. The other three in the in the states right now are solar driven. Solar still has to charge a battery. And so it comes down to the product. But, um, no, I mean, the solar ones will for the most part, uh, but but in terms of battery, it takes 1 to 2 batteries a year and they're about $10 a battery, you know.
Miranda: Yeah. And the ones, even the solar ones, I've heard of research in other states where they've had issues because they didn't have great connectivity. And so their solar recharge was having issues keeping up. And so there's definitely situations where you're going to run into challenges.
Casey: So do most of the this is getting into the weeds. Now I got a lot of questions.
Cayla: Go for it.
Casey: I might have a way to apply it even. But so like the the fence, the virtual fence that you're putting out, is it something where the collar has to continually connect to hit that, or does the collar actually download that fence for that until you change the download?
Miranda: So our collars that we use, and it varies a little from company to company, can hold six boundaries in there. Um, and so once you have to have initial connectivity for it to count download and you to assign that cow to a herd and assign those, those fences, and then that downloads the collar. And once it's on there, unless you make an update, that's going to be.
Casey: Okay.
Miranda: On there or in there. And you can have when we set things up at the beginning of the grazing season, my students and I, we have our grazing calendar that we've all worked on together, and we go, here's the day we want this to turn on. This is what we want this one to turn off. This one's turning on, turning off. And we can have all that set up on the front end, which we will go in and adjust, but we can have it all set up.
Casey: If you just let it go, it kind of moves themselves. Or how does that work?
Kevin: I mean, once you turn them off.
Casey: Yeah. Like once you've got them set to go, this one's going to turn on and off on these dates. Like that's the theory right. Is you know.
Kevin: It's a good theory, it works.
Casey: Right. Yeah.
Miranda: Overall it works. There's things that we have to look at. Just like any grazing system like water location really helps with that movement. We did a pilot this summer. Just a twice over rotational grazing system. It worked perfectly. The only time we used a movement fence so we didn't have to go out and move them. We moved them with a fence that pushed them slowly. Okay, that we used it when we moved from the north back to the bottom pie. And that was it. Otherwise those animals, because they were going to that water source, which was always within a boundary, they were finding that new boundary and we didn't have to move them. So it worked really well. But it does. There's little nuances in terms of your pasture setup, and you might have to go push a couple in.
Kevin: It's cool though. You can actually move your cows sitting behind your computer.
Casey: I don't know if that's good for us, Kevin.
Casey: I don't know if that's good for us.
Cayla: Well, he might have to go move the water.
Casey: Unless we're fishing instead.
Casey: But. Yeah, but yeah. So, like, one thing I think of, I move mine through electric fences that I have, and they're, they're pretty hot fences. But like, I've had times when I like my wife will go out and she can't get him to come through that fence because they're not used to her voice. Like where the fence the gate used to be. It's gone now. They stand there and look at her, you know. And one time she had my oldest son with. And he got out and called him through, but they were used to him. He came with me all the time, and they just come right through, you know? So, like, do you ever end up with that, that learned boundary that you that's hard to get past. And that's.
Miranda: Because it's the audio cue that. And that's gone. Yep. They will move. We actually have more problems. So our strip grazing we're using those automatic gate openers. We had some heifers this year and we've had issues always. But this this is an extreme case in Fargo this year that for two days they wouldn't go through that gate. They didn't figure out where it was. We had to push them through because they were starting to lose weight and condition. And they just they couldn't figure it out first time.
Casey: Never trusted them. Never ain't going through there. Never trust them.
Kevin: I thought the same thing because I've done a lot of electric fence and since it's audio learned. Yeah, if they don't hear a sound, they don't stop.
Casey: It doesn't matter.
Kevin: Yeah, they don't care.
Casey: Good.
Miranda: And they learn it quickly. We had a field day and and out in the field the the heifers one of them approached and they were kind of in a group. That heifer that approached got the cue and the whole herd of them turned though away from the fence.
Casey: The loud enough they're all hearing it going,
Cayla: Don't like that?
Casey: She's too close.
Cayla: How do they pick which one has to be?
Casey: Yeah. Who's the lead one.
Kevin: Well, they don't pick because there's always some ornery one.
Cayla: Yeah.
Kevin: There's always one of the bunch that just pushes like a teeny bopper.
Casey: Yeah.
Kevin: There's always one that pushes it.
Casey: Yeah.
Kevin: You know, I think eventually they'll be, you'll be, you'll be culling. If you get into virtual fencing, you'll probably cull within your herd.
Casey: Yeah, right.
Kevin: Which ones? Don't listen.
Casey: When you said there's a training period or there's the put them on cell those that go across the line and keep the rest.
Miranda: Yeah. Yeah. We I mean, we find that most of our breakouts are the same animals over and over. And so, yeah, if you're...
Kevin: Kind of like Casey was yeah.
Casey: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Miranda: So yeah, you got to use that as a culling behavior if you're using this technology.
Casey: Mhm. Oh we probably should have been anyway they were probably the ones on the other side of the fence anyway.
Miranda: More than likely.
Casey: Yeah.
Kevin: One thing other nice. That's about the technology especially when it comes to conservation, is you can really fence out certain areas. You know, keeping him in a boundary seems to be not sufficient. But if you keep them out of a boundary, it seems to work really well. So if you want to protect something or when we do exclusion grazing seems to be more efficient than even the inclusion grazing. So I think in terms of conservation, it's a tremendous potential to exclude areas that are sensitive or you get rid of an interior fence so you don't have sage grouse hitting a fence or over an antelope worrying about it. And um, even though we don't look at those questions, we know it's a, it's a benefit to wildlife in terms of protection or safety and just.
Casey: Even some of the stuff that like, I fence out all my wetlands and I have a portable system that I can pump out of them instead of letting them get in there. And like you said, either damage the the mud line around there or I don't get any hoof rot anymore.
Kevin: No.
Casey: I think keeping them out of the water, keeping them standing in the water. But it's a lot of those things are double, you know, kind of those you could just fence every one of those out. Wouldn't have to put that one strand of poly wire up.
Cayla: Are there any like projects or universities that you're familiar with that are looking at some of the more like conservation questions associated with it.
Miranda: So Oregon State's done some riparian work and keeping them out and found it effective in that setting. A little different conservation. But um, they have and I think I think Texas is going to be doing firebreaks with um.
Cayla: Oh, yeah.
Miranda: Keeping them in that small area. Getting some heavy use in those areas.
Kevin: I think we're leading the country in terms of virtual fencing and bird work and pollinator work. We've had now. I think we've had three years of work on looking at the passerine birds and grassland birds. And we compare it to patch burn grazing and compare it to season long grazing to look at those little different questions. And in the end we're testing patch patch grazing which is using virtual fence as a tool. Yeah. And then I think the the pollinator side, the data looks really good on pollinators and I'm not sure why. Um, if we're creating a heavy enough disturbance within the patch grazing that we're getting more floral expression the next year. Um, but that seems to be as good, if not even better, than the patch burning did. No, I think it's a caveat in the year, but at least it looks promising for conservation. And those questions. And then I think of these questions on keeping sensitive areas out in particular, like where Jorgensen used it at is to create hunting lanes so they could keep whether it's a food plot or whatever they did in created areas for secure for pheasants in their case.
Casey: Well, and you mentioned something about the, the riparian stuff, you know, and it's not that riparian areas shouldn't be grazed, but it's just so intensive to fence that little tiny area for a certain period of time.
Miranda: Yeah. My team is working with Forest Service on the Sheyenne on a riparian grazing project, and definitely seeing the benefits of the grazing. We're seeing more invasives coming in after we're on year five of five years of exclusion on the excluded areas. And so we in North Dakota, we need that grazing disturbance, but it needs to be managed so that we have enough regrowth so that when we have high flows in the spring, it's capturing sediment and keeping those areas stable. But management is key and it is tricky. Those the ranchers we're working with, they didn't want to put up more fences because they're going to put them up every spring because of how that particular stream flows. And so it's hard.
Casey: It's such a short duration to you. You know, you're going to fence this area to maybe be able to graze it for such a short period of time, because it's not a very big area. And then, yeah, this could be it could be big on that. I've even seen, you know, cattle used in like, stream restoration type of stuff to me. But yeah.
Cayla: What different or do you have different like time frames. Like have you moved them daily with this or is it just. Yeah. What different frequencies have you guys played around with.
Kevin: We haven't done any daily.
Cayla: Okay.
Kevin: But we do. In terms of the the strip grazing trials, we do when we start them out there on really about an acre in size. So and you're talking 10 to 12 head of cattle. So you can get pretty small. Um, I think you can easily do a daily move. Um, it depends on the company you're going to pick. Some have better GPS. Um, what's the word I'm thinking of there?
Miranda: Accuracy.
Kevin: Accuracy? Yeah. You know, so when it gets, uh, the daily moves, you gotta have enough accuracy within within the technology. But. And then we also have big pastures and big pastures, quarter section. Um, so.
Miranda: Yeah, the, the quickest moves are shortest move is every seven days on our, on our, um, strip grazing. Again, I think you have to be creative with how you're implementing and using the technologies, because there's three different fences we can create. We can create that inclusion and exclusion and and a movement fence to move them. We actually set up our strip grazing as exclusions that were moving because of how that the product we're working with doesn't like you to create that small of a fence because of their accuracy. So we just thought about it differently and did it as exclusion. So, you know, working with the different products, I think knowing how they can be set up is important. The other four products on the market in the US that you just actually set up one boundary and the scale is a little different. Um, so they have the one boundary as you as those animals approach, they get an audio and if they keep moving, it's followed by a shock where the product that we're using has an audio zone and a shock zone that have to be a certain distance because of their accuracy, and so that in some ways can limit you. If you don't think out of the box in how you're setting things up.
Kevin: The other common question we get is if they go through the zone, do they get shocked when they come back and they don't? It's okay. It's a one way, a one way street.
Casey: Shock.
Kevin: Once you're through and you can come back.
Casey: So do they continually get the tone when they're out. Or once they're out, they're out the zone.
Kevin: They're out.
Casey: Dirty.
Kevin: But the beauty of cattle is.
Casey: They always go back.
Kevin: Yeah, they're gregarious animals to a degree, and they'll always come back into the herd. And so even though I get mad at that one cow for two weeks straight, I figure she's doing her job.
Casey: They stand on the other side of the fence, but they don't go very far sometimes unless the rest of them go with them mhmm. So what in the in the research are we looking at dollars and cents type of stuff. Like I'm going to put up these fences. I'm going to take this time you know. Are we doing any of that.
Miranda: We are working with an economist on our strip grazing project out of University of Nebraska, Lincoln, who's also replicating that project down there. Um, we don't have numbers yet, and I really think it's we're going to work on some publications with some scenarios with them, but it's really going to come down to, like Kevin mentioned, how many months out of the year are you using this? How can you get the most use out of it to invest or improve that return on investment?
Casey: Right.
Miranda: Um, and there are some products that actually do have they just switched over? So some of the companies do do a monthly charge. And if you're not using it, turn it off. So I think evaluating all those things are are important. As we're going in, we talked about um, some of them have a lease system. Some of them you're buying the the products outright. I think there's pros and cons to both. Um, and I think working through that's important right now. I really enjoyed the lease system with our products because we've had some challenges. Um, there's the technology is still pretty new and there's I mean, our first collars were like version L maybe, or we're on version R, so it and and so it's continually improving and we get the new access to the newest upgrades. If something goes wrong which all of the, all the companies will back up if there's a defect with the product. But we have with the battery housing we've had some water ingress and that impacts the collar's ability to work. They replace all those every year. And so that's been a good experience on our end. Um, but that that's just those are all pieces to consider as you're trying thinking about is this the right product and right move for your operation?
Kevin: When you look at the products in the market today, if you amortize out the costs, which Miranda's did this over a five years, all about the same price, give or take 80 bucks a year.
Casey: Yeah. You just charge you a little different and a little different.
Kevin: Yeah. And some have subscription fees. But in the end, if producers think it's going to cost me 80 bucks a year today, I do think the products are going to get more reasonable, they're going to get more reasonable, or they're going to add more stuff to the technology, whether it's animal behavior, animal health, um, that's going to come. Um, and so then you can you can then pay for those costs more readily through the bigger picture. But for a producer, that's what's going to cost. And I do think in terms of small acres, it's probably not very cost effective. Um, but in terms of big acres, like we talked about earlier with the Badlands, I think it's extremely cost effective if you're going to build a fence.
Casey: Right.
Kevin: If you can increase efficiency by 10% in today's cattle market, that's a lot of money.
Casey: Right. And I think too, there's a you know, if you're going to do things the same way you've been doing them and do this collar, you're probably not going to gain much. Know if you're going to if you're willing to change some stuff. And that might be longer grazing season reduced, you know, feed inputs, things like that. I think there's some benefits to that. How how well do they work in the winter?
Miranda: So the latest we've gone is November and we haven't had issues. Um, I really want to bail graze because we had a bail grazing project nightmare. Um, just in terms of getting the fences to ground and keeping those calves in. And so I'm like, gosh, even the herdsman we were working with on the project, he's like, we should have collars on these cows. That would work. It would work better. Um, and so I think I want to try it in that situation. I know that there's been some work done in Saskatchewan that they've used it year round and haven't had issues. So obviously if it works there, it should work here.
Casey: Yeah, that's way better than my electric fences.
Kevin: Yeah, I know our towers are working good because they're still on.
Casey: Mhm. Okay. Cool.
Cayla: Yeah. It's gotta be so I mean I guess that's true of any ag system. It's just got to be so hard to calculate the ROI because. Yeah. Or like, you know it might take years for it to show up if you're like yeah doing conservation things and improving your like grass diversity. And yeah, that's not just going to show up tomorrow on your.
Kevin: And then putting your your value for labor.
Cayla: Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin: The labor is.
Casey: A a lot of farmers. Ranchers always forget to pay themselves.
Kevin: Yeah, I know that is true.
Miranda: Yeah, I think too there's there's cost share opportunities out there. Um, right now. And I think we're especially lucky here in North Dakota because there's the programs through Ducks Unlimited that are providing opportunities for producers to invest in this technology and use it, as well as equip on a national level, provide some cost share as well. So I think looking at those opportunities, it makes it a little more feasible for producers to try it and work with, with our um, conservation groups to achieve conservation goals as well as their production goals.
Casey: Right. And I think if people show demand that equip money they Keep coming for something like this.
Kevin: When I saw NRCS was going to invest in this in their Equip program, I knew it was going to be a bigger program that will be successful. Um, because it just seems like if we got, we got some investment from the general public or whatever it is, producers will do it, we'll try it. And if it's successful and for me, it's one of the most successful technologies that I've ever used up front that didn't have a lot of failures. And this one seems to have you have glitches like anything else you have, but it seems to always get better and seems to work effectively. And for me, I'm on rangelands. I'm tickled pink on the results that we see on terms of grazing strategies in terms of harvest efficiency. The conservation side looks really good. So to me it could be a win win. And I just see it. It's going to continue to grow and be a popular tool for ranchers. They're going to be the feedback on ranchers will be, well then I got to put a collar on every cow.
Casey: Yeah.
Kevin: And which means more labor on their side. And so we'll see how that comes out. But almost like with the ID tag stuff, it's just who's willing to invest in the technology and and how is it going to fit their operation?
Casey: I mean, you know, when you think of putting a collar on every cow, It's like, well, I have all those cows in a head gate at some point, maybe 2 or 3 times a year. Yeah. You know, if unless I can avoid it, you know, but it's like, how how long does it take to put a collar on a cow?
Miranda: It depends how good you are.
Casey: Yeah. Are you getting better? Obviously.
Miranda: No. It's about. It's less than a minute.
Casey: Yeah.
Kevin: It's a give or take a minute.
Casey: Yeah.
Miranda: And when we collar, we collared when they were vaccinating and we, those heifers went out to pasture, they took the collars off themselves and they took them off themselves when they preg-checked. And so they're already going to run those animals through and just did, did that when, when they were doing other work. Um, the one consideration, you know, is if those animals and I was kind of concerned with the heifers is if the animals are growing animals, we might have to adjust that collar fit because you don't want it too tight, you don't want it too loose. And so just for animal welfare and safety reasons. And we didn't have to do that at Black Leg, but that is a consideration if you have growing animals wearing collars.
Kevin: And Miranda says, we, Miranda and I were both there. How many professors you see out in someone's backyard?
Casey: Right
Miranda: Thankfully Josh was with us.
Kevin: And Josh too.
Miranda: Thankfully, grad students help.
Casey: Yeah. Well, I wonder over time, like there'll be some materials, so, like, we put collars on deer and bucks, you know, and so, like, they make kind of a stretchy material that will swell with the rut and things like that. So there could even be stuff.
Cayla: Pretty soon it'll just be like an AirTag.
Casey: That. Yeah.
Cayla: Yeah, it won't even be a collar.
Kevin: We'll see more tags eventually, I think.
Casey: So in other words, I spend more time filling shot needles and replacing bent needles than I will putting the collar on.
Kevin: Yeah, probably.
Casey: I mean.
Kevin: Especially once you get good at it.
Casey: Mhm.
Kevin: I do think the technology on, on wildlife would be kind of cool to follow. I mean the current technology doesn't really stretch. So once you have it on them you can't put it on a growing animal, but I think the technology worked really cool. It's just they move around so much. Can you? Actually, I think it would have to be almost satellite dependent by then to do that.
Casey: Mhm. The other question I had on it was when do you anticipate like your research being finalized on these projects you're working on right now.
Miranda: We have preliminary results and reports out now. Um come to field days we give updates there. But um, and there's reports in central grasslands.
Casey: Okay.
Kevin: I think we'll have probably four reports in the central grasslands research report. Um, the journal articles will probably start coming out in about probably two years. The economic data should come out about the same time, maybe a little earlier. Um, and we got livestock performance data as well. So we, um.
Casey: Can they find most of that through the NDSU extension website grasslands page?
Miranda: Reach out to us if you can't find it.
Casey: Okay.
Kevin: And we try to get everything on one of those I want to remember, you know, I make them write a report that's legible. I make it a little more legible today. Um, that tells the whole story. And they can see the data, right?
Casey: Yeah.
Cayla: Have you tried it out on your grad students yet?
Kevin: We did not. Nebraska did. Not the current Nebraska. But I mean, I heard someone from Nebraska put it on his thigh and went into the zone. And he was he was kind of running all over the place trying to get it off.
Miranda: Our students have not that that they've told us. I don't know if they tell us though.
Kevin: What do they what's the on the.
Cayla: Get to class.
Casey: Yeah.
Kevin: On the comparison for, uh, electric fence is it 3%.
Miranda: It's similar. Um, it just depends on the product. So it's between 5 and 8kV, so it's.
Casey: Yeah, that's enough.
Miranda: And then ruminant, the small ruminant ones are, are obviously the less.
Casey: Oh, I don't know if you want to put it less on them goats. I've got a couple. I've tried to train them to electric fence and that's not. That doesn't work.
Kevin: Goats are just stubborn.
Casey: I know I got a couple. There's a couple that won't go within four feet of the fence. And then there's a couple that stare at it, and they start screaming before they run into it, and they just go right through.
Kevin: I had Angoras on a trial and we had it at nine.
Casey: Yeah.
Kevin: And they still would get out and they would use their little horns, you know, and long long hair.
Cayla: Teamwork
Kevin: And once they go out, it's just like.
Kevin: Yeah. And they're gone stop.
Casey: Yeah. Yeah. And they don't usually stand by the fence if the rest of the group isn't there either they're gone.
Kevin: And once they're gone, they don't just go 100ft.
Casey: No, no, they go feral.
Miranda: According to. So there's Lealand Schoon out of South Dakota. He's been using it on goats to do some targeted grazing and had some really good results with it. So and he's happy with how I was managing his goats.
Casey: Yeah. I've thought about my problem is you got to have the boundary fence.
Kevin: Yeah.
Casey: At some point like to manage riparian areas or to go in and clean up areas. Man, if you could get this to work as a boundary fence for goats.
Kevin: Yeah.
Casey: You’d make way more money just cleaning stuff up for people.
Kevin: I don't think you can ever. I don't see the technology ever getting that tight where they can do the boundary fence. Um, but it makes a phenomenal interior fence. It's just.
Miranda: And just the flexibility, like, we've moved things around in the middle of the season because this wetland was fuller than we anticipated, and cows were getting in there and we didn't want them in there. And so just being able to go in and within a couple hours, usually just making the fence doesn't take long, but it will take long for that update to get to the collar. So we usually give it an hour for it to update. So in less than two hours you can have a new fence made and assigned to those animals.
Casey: Yeah. And the problem with putting up permanent fences is it's dry one year or wet one year. You can't change intensity or anything on it until you start putting up more fences. So yeah.
Kevin: I never did say the size of your boundary fence, you know.
Casey: Right. Yeah.
Kevin: As long as there's no ones main road going through there.
Casey: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Kevin: But but, uh, just by insurance purposes, you should have a good fence.
Casey: Well, North Dakota is a fence in state, so you're required by law to fence all your critters in.
Kevin: Yep.
Casey: Includes your dog. Yeah. All right.
Cayla: Yeah. Well, thanks for being on, guys.
Kevin: Oh. You're welcome.
Miranda: Thanks for having us.
Cayla: Okay, we'll get into the department droppings. Electronic posting opened on February 1st. Um, so if you'd like to electronically post your land for hunting season that opened and is open through July 1st, which just gives us time to kind of update all the maps and everything. But you'll see a few new options this year so you can continue to post for the entire season. Um, but we've also have one where you just post your land during the deer rifle season. So for those, is it 16 days?
Casey: 16 1/2.
Cayla: 16 1/2 and a half um, or you can have it posted like through deer season. So then, um, it would just be open after deer season closes. Um, if you're interested in allowing some late season opportunities. So there'll be a few more options there.
Casey: And then we've got the North Dakota Waterfall Brigade camp application deadline of March 15th.
Cayla: And then Hunt Link, uh, was live last fall. So it's just kind of a sort of a new take on the coyote catalog, but everything's kind of hands off automated. So if you're a landowner experiencing depredation this winter, you can go into your game and fish account and basically fill out this, like, hunter request form. Um, coyote is probably the most popular one, but there's several other options on there. Deer if you're interested in youth deer. Moose. Elk. Uh, turkey. So yeah, you can select which species, put your contact information, and then hunters can view that map on our website. Um, if you're interested in looking for opportunities. And then at any time, landowners can just turn that off if their needs have been met.
Casey: All right. Now that we've dropped the droppings, you can get off the pot and get outdoors.