In this episode of NDO Podcast we visit with Kevin Kading, Department private land section leader, about steps taken since the 2024 Habitat and Hunting Access Summit including new tools, programs, partnerships and out-of-the-box solutions to ensuring our hunting heritage.
(Intro music)
Cayla: Welcome to episode 84 of the NDO podcast. On this episode, we're going to do. I think we've already done one of these, but another sort of follow up on the Habitat and Hunting Access Summit, which was around this time last year, last December. Um, and just some of the progress that's been made and some of the things that'll be forthcoming in in the in the next year or so in regards to habitat and hunting access. So to have that conversation, we've got Kevin Kading back on with us. Um, department private land section leader. Uh, but yeah, I think we've all been involved in different parts of this too so.
Casey: I think we the last one we did was kind of a this is the Habitat and Access Summit. What it was, what we did, uh, some of the information that we gathered from the public. And now we've got Kevin back on to talk about a little bit of what we've been doing with that information.
Kevin: Yeah. Good timing to have the update. And we're in the fall hunting seasons, and it might be on a lot of people's minds. And um, and just an update in general is always good. You know, we've been busy. Um, there's been a lot of things that have kind of spawned from that habitat and Access summit and a lot of things internally. And then even outside of our agency that other partners are working on as well too. So, yeah, lots of good information. I think we can update people on.
Cayla: Not great information.
Kevin: Great information. Lots of great information too.
Cayla: Yeah. And one of the things we've all talked about a lot too, is it's some of these ideas. It's not like we hadn't been thinking about them or working on them prior to the summit, but the summit really provided like some nice momentum and, um.
Casey: Backing it.
Cayla: Yes. Yeah.
Casey: The public wanted some of this stuff too, that we were, we were contemplating or working on at some level to, you know, help us decide that, hey, is it worth the expense and energy? Yeah. You know, we get to a certain point and then we kind of go, okay, this is going to start costing money or time and energy that we could be doing something else. If the public doesn't want this, then.
Kevin: Right.
Casey: Don't go. But this pushed us along I think.
Kevin: Yeah. Um, I would you know, just add to that, you know, if if people don't know what we're talking about, if you look on our website, we have all those recommendations. There's, I think like three pages of pretty solid recommendations. Um, some of those are, I guess maybe quick hitters and other ones are a lot bigger lift and and so, um, we as an agency sat down. Boy, I don't know when that was earlier this year, early in the year and started picking through those and went, all right, let's group these into which ones could we tackle and which ones are going to take that bigger lift, you know, um, and um, that's what we did. And so we did start working on that. And that's, that's been kind of the guiding, you know, what's been guiding us throughout this process this last summer and into the fall here. And, and, um, we'll talk about some of those things. But what I want to make sure that people understand is just because we aren't hitting on all of them today, that doesn't mean we're not going to, you know, address those other ones. It's just we we had to start somewhere and and some of those, like I said, are they take more time, they take more coordination. Um, we'll talk about electronic posting changes. I'm sure. You know, that's the type of thing that it seems easy, but there's a lot more that goes into it as far as on the the programing, the computer side of things and getting started on that earlier than, um, that's going to need to get started on that sooner so we can have that ready for fall of 2026. And so and other things are more, like I said, quick hitters where we can just make some quick adjustments and additions to a, to a program or to to a funding budget, things like that. And that doesn't take quite as big of a lift. So quite a bit of different recommendations that we're trying to implement though.
Casey: Yeah. And I think another thing too, that we kind of hit on at the summit was, is that the Game and Fish department can't do this by itself. And so some of those things on that list might be things that partners are going to work on or things. And we're kind of engaging in a, in a more frequent, um, conversations with some of our partners pulling in new partners, because it's not going to happen by just game and fish. Yeah. Doing it and so.
Kevin: Well, should we start with PLOTS?
Cayla: Yeah, I think so.
Kevin: That's a pretty popular one.
Cayla: Do you know anything about that program?
Casey: Have we been doing it? Um, I saw it once for a while.
Kevin: Well, yeah. I mean, um, it is very well received program and, you know, and we heard a lot about bolstering PLOTS, you know, about getting more acres, getting more access, getting more habitat on the landscape. Again, that wasn't anything we didn't know, but we heard that pretty loud and clear at the summit. And, um, so one of the goals or one of those recommendations was to grow PLOTS. And, and we had already kind of started doing that with some internal goals, um, to try to get back to a million acres by 2028. And, um, the last two years, we actually grew the program by about 40,000 acres each year. And so that's the trajectory that we're on, is to kind of keep that, that, that, um, going back to a million acres. And so, um, again, that was something we were shooting for anyway. But, um, this extra shot in the arm from the habitat summit certainly, uh, reaffirmed that that's what we want to do. Um, so we're on that path already. Um, but one of the things that, like you just mentioned, Casey, like with other partners and not doing this alone is working with with some of those other groups, you know, some of the other nonprofit groups and, um, putting some additional access incentives out there or some additional incentives on top of PLOTS to try to grow the program.
Kevin: And so we've got a couple projects like that that we're working on right now. And, um, some other ones that are going to hit the ground here hopefully soon. Um, but that'll help again grow that program even more. Um, because it does take a lot. It takes a lot of dollars and it takes a lot of effort and it takes manpower on the ground and it takes partners help. And to kind of spread the word about these things, too. And so, um, we've got good momentum going there. Um, I do think we'll be able to hit that mark. Um, it's again, it's a lot a lot of things go into that. You know, it really varies, um, from year to year and what's going on out on the landscape. But, um, we've been doing a lot more outreach and a lot more promotion and a lot more just getting awareness out there. So we're on a good path forward there.
Casey: Yeah. And we've what we added one two biologists in the last few years or four years probably. Um, so we've got a little more capacity and we've tried to automate some things to make it easier for those folks to do on the ground work.
Kevin: Yeah, all of that time is money, like they say, you know, or, um, you know, and so if we can spend less time working on agreements and more time getting land in the program, that's what we want to do. But, um, and some of those improvements are just kind of starting to take hold now, you know, a lot of those changes. But yeah, we got a couple new staff out there too in the last few years. So more boots on the ground is always helpful for sure.
Cayla: And in those recommendations, if you read them. And just when we were reading the comments and those of us that were there that night, and I think you guys hear this in other places too, but it's like you got a sector of people that it's like, we need more crop fields in PLOTS because we want to hunt waterfowl and on the same vein, some other guy raises his hand and says it's nothing but stubble fields. I just want to hunt grass. So I feel like you guys have put in more emphasis on or incentivize new habitat, new grass plantings. But then we've had a lot of discussions about how to also address the waterfowl access, whether that's through PLOTS or through something else.
Kevin: But yeah, you're exactly right. That's never that's always been an ongoing, um, discussion, I guess. And and I can understand it, you know, if, um, if you have pheasant hunting on your mind and you drive somewhere and you show up to one of those yellow squares on the map, and you get there and it's a crop field, um, it might not be what you're looking for, but, um, we just have to keep sending that message that PLOTS is for everything, for a lot of different species. And, um, and there are some, you know, a lot of diversity out there when it comes to PLOTS tracts. But yeah, you're right, Cayla, we have, um, again, we've increased our effort to put more habitat on the landscape in certain areas of the state and working with partners to do that as well. Um, in the last couple of years, we've added like 6000 acres just last year of new grass on the landscape. Um, that doesn't seem like a lot when you think about the size of the state, but when you think about the amount of work that goes into that and trying to get that coordinated with landowners and renters and partners, and it is a big, big effort. But, um, and those are premium acres. You know, they'll be on the landscape for ten, 15, maybe even 20 years. Some of those we do some longer term agreements at times too. And so they're paying dividends for quite a while out there. And those are the ones that people really get excited about when they pull up to those those PLOTS tracts. But again, you got to have the right landowner. You got to have the right situation. Um, we certainly need that cooperation from those landowners to that's a big, a big ask of a landowner to be able to to want to do that. I always blows my mind if I'm being honest. Like how gracious these landowners are to, you know, enroll their land into a program like this and share it with everybody. And, and, um, in today's world, that's getting to be less and less common.
Casey: And some of them get a real kick out of just seeing people out there or. Yeah, knowing that people are having that opportunity to enjoy what they've enjoyed.
Kevin: Oh yeah, I wish I could tell those stories somehow. I mean, you just hear those just through conversations with landowners or our staff, you know, or just, you know, some people are just delighted to have someone show up out there and, and be able to share that experience with them. And it's pretty cool.
Casey: And you're right, I think the public or the or the hunters using it like they don't they don't hear that a lot of times. And our biologists are the ones that hear that, you know, it's like, oh, I saw, you know, dad and their kids out there or whatever. The whole family out there is just great, you know? And yeah, we we hear it. And then it kind of goes, spreads between us and never gets out of the walls.
Kevin: But, you know, and I think, I think a lot of hunters do contact landowners themselves now. You know, there's more.
Casey: It's easier.
Kevin: You can use onX or something to do that and find out who owns it. But if there's a hunter out there that wants to say thanks to PLOTS or let us know. Yeah, we actually are talking about maybe building something like that through a link or something that someone could send a thank you note. And those little things mean a lot to us, and they mean a lot to those landowners, I know that.
Casey: Yeah. The other thing I was going to mention, too, about those crop fields in a lot of our PLOTS tracts is, I think, sometimes, well, a lot of times people don't realize that the landowner has maybe 2 or 3 quarters that they put in. One of them happens to be crop. One of them might be a crop, right? And one of them might be a pasture. And so when you wrap that whole contract together, there's usually some habitat out there. Very rarely are we taking just a crop field unless it's a real specialized waterfowl opportunity.
Kevin: Yeah. Or a certain part of the state that has that opportunity more. Yeah, maybe the northeast, North central, you might see more of that, you know, but um, but they're I mean, they can occur anywhere, like you said. And sometimes you have to look at the bigger contract and see what's all involved. So but.
Cayla: Yeah, I don't know if I've walked a stubble field with one slough in the middle that doesn't have a pheasant in it.
Casey: So yeah. Right now. Yeah.
Kevin: Sweet spot.
Cayla: It's a little bit of a walk just to walk your little section.
Casey: Yeah.
Casey: Yeah. So you want to hit the big one.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: The next one we've got on the list anyway so we don't forget is the governor's. What are we calling it now.
Kevin: Legacy soil health and habitat.
Cayla: Oh, it's got a new program name, okay.
Kevin: Well, even before we get to that though, I mean, one of the recommendations, again, if if people are familiar with it, it was really to bolster the use of the Outdoor Heritage Fund and to, you know, use that to grow habitat and PLOTS and access. And that's what OHF is, you know, it's got those directives in there. Um, habitat and access. So are those are those are two big directives that we want to try to, um, get on the ground as well, too. And so, um, so we are partnering with some other groups as well that have, um, their own Outdoor Heritage Fund grants, um, proposals or they have already. And, um, they're they're using the Habitat and Access Summit as, um, a rationale for, for going in for that because the public is saying we want this. And so that's been a good, like I said, a good spin off or a good follow up from that habitat summit. Um, it shows the need out there, you know. And so there's a lot of groups out there using that, um, platform, I guess you could call it. But um, but yeah, the big one that we have, um, that we again, we started talking about this. This isn't new. It's just, um, more recent discussions, you know, about, um, as we've lost CRP in the state, as we've lost habitat for a lot of different reasons. Um, what can we do as a state, you know, and, you know, I'm sure you guys hear it all the time, Casey. You know, at the upper level, like, well, why doesn't PLOTS just go out there and do that? Well, you know, the scale is so different. You know, CRP was $120 million program at one time in North Dakota annually.
Casey: Yeah. And and that was 15, 20 years ago. Think of inflation now.
Kevin: Right. And so PLOTS will never be that, you know, and then, um, so what could we do in lieu of that, you know, and, and and we did we met with the governor at one time and he, he kind of looked at us too and said, we don't want this to be all game and fish. We want this to be partners. And everybody can play a role here. And and so we took that to heart. And I guess we had a lot of good discussions internally. But then we reached out to, started reaching out to some of the ag and commodity groups and really got some good feedback, really good, honest discussions about what, um, what they're looking for, what we're looking for, trying to meet in the middle, um, good faith, effort to work together to put some conservation on the ground. And, and if nothing else comes out of this, I mean, it was a good relationship building exercise that way, I think. But, um, so we heard some good information there. And then, um, the other thing was, how would we even do this if we were to have like a statewide program? You know, CRP had somebody in every county FSA office and probably a couple people working on it.
Casey: Well, and when it started, it was under NRCS to begin with. And so they were in every county as well.
Kevin: Yeah, it's just a much bigger, um, footprint out there to, to deliver a program that size. And so, um, the, the, the thing that resembles that the most is the soil conservation districts with the North Dakota Association of Soil Conservation Districts kind of being that umbrella organization, and then every county having a soil conservation district. And again, there's a lot of, you know, there's locally led, you know, a board that oversees those soil conservation districts there, um, well vetted that way. And so we started having conversations about could that be the model to run something like this. And so, um, that's kind of where we landed, was working with the Association of Soil Conservation Districts to submit, um, a larger OHF grant this just last week here. I guess last Friday was the deadline or Saturday was the deadline to submit. And um, and again, with feedback and input from conservation ag energy groups, um, trying to figure out a way that balances all those interests out and um, and it'll be, you know, looking at, um, different parts of their fields and operations, maybe it's not the most productive piece of their field, or maybe it's a corner or an odd area. Um, that's just inefficient to farm or just long ways from home or whatever it might be. Squaring off a field, squaring off the edge of a stream, um, kind of looking at it from the angle that if everybody played a little or did a little bit, you know, we'd all have a little bit more out there. And again, that's what we all kind of met in the middle on that. And so there'll be a rental payment associated with any of those acres that get planted to grass and um, um, and cost share to develop the grass and the seed and all that. So um, but again, shorter term contract five years. Again, you know, that's again what some of the groups were comfortable with.
Casey: Well, it's interesting, you know, because you mentioned like that we say CRP, how are we going to replace CRP? And really what we did with this is we went, okay, what was bad with CRP? Yeah. With farmers and ranchers. What was good? What things can we add and how can we make it benefit, you know, beyond maybe what CRP did at some level?
Kevin: Yeah. Took bits and pieces of the things that worked and put it together in a different format, is all it really was. But, um, again, I, you know, if we were to just start with the same old, same old, we would have probably gotten nowhere. You know, it would have been, um, it would have been that all over again. And so, um, it was like I said, good healthy discussion. And, um, and, um, the idea then is that this is a stepping stone, maybe to something bigger. You know, if we can prove that this works, if ag and energy and conservation are all in line on this, you know, um, that that'll help that become maybe something bigger down the road, too. So, um, it's a pilot project right now. And again, we're a long ways from knowing, you know, we have to get the grant was just submitted, and we have to find out if it even gets awarded here in December. Um, so we're a ways out from anything on the ground. Um, but again, it's something different. Um, the other angle that we took with this is, um, um, working with crop insurance, which is something we've never done before, but so for any acre of grass that's planted, they get a $10 per acre credit on their crop insurance.
Kevin: You know, for every acre that's planted, some type of conservation, not a payment but a credit, you know, so that that can be used to buy down their crop insurance bill and, um, and get some conservation benefits out of it that way, too. And, and, um, then the hopes are that, you know, we have folks that producers really talk to a lot and trust, you know, like agronomists and crop advisors and folks like that that are out there that can help sell this and promote it and talk to producers about that. That part of the field that may maybe isn't producing as well as it should or, um, or whatever it might be, you know, just their bottom line, you know, talking about that instead of maybe a standard approach where a game and fish biologist or another partner biologist is out there. Um, this will just be another angle. So it'll be interesting to see how that all shakes out.
Casey: So a lot of thinking outside the box, thinking outside of traditional programs and and working with those other producers groups. We've also to help with some of this stuff put together that landowner sportsman. Um, and they've helped us kind of come up with some of this and are helping us work through it as we go.
Kevin: Yep. Absolutely. We bounced this off. Like I said, we started with internal and we started with the and we went to the ag groups and conservation groups obviously are we're more closely associated with anyway, you know, so we probably talked to them a little more frequently. Um, but again, we even met with um, other folks outside of that energy as well. Um, but yeah, then we took that, you know, what we had is a draft at the time and, and, um, another outcome or another recommendation from the Habitat and Access Summit was to develop these landowner, these stakeholder group meetings, hunter and landowner stakeholder meetings. And so, um, we did that this fall as well. And we talked about a whole host of things that are related to the, I guess, what we're talking about today, from habitat and access to posting to a lot of different things. And, and we floated this, uh, proposal by hunters and landowners and again, pretty well received. They brought out some things that we didn't really think of. And so that's that's the whole point of that though, is started charging off down the road in the wrong direction. We we got some good input and guidance on this. So, um, it's been really well received by a lot of different groups and individuals. And so is it perfect? Probably not. But is it something to start with? Definitely. And it's and then there's one thing that people might be wondering is, is there access required? And um, there's an access component, but it's not a requirement. And again, we want to get as much access as we can. But we also heard that if it's required that's kind of a nonstarter. Right. You know and so giving people options is is something that we really want to start exploring outside of PLOTS as well. Plots is great, but not everybody wants PLOTS either. But they are willing to provide hunting access. And so there's maybe some other options that we can add on later.
Casey: Yeah. So ultimately, that this governor's Legacy Soil and Health Habitat program will be like it'll be like a soil Conservation District program. And then there'll be incentives if you want to do access. Right. Um, incentives for different habitat and different things that you want to do. But yeah, hopefully that'll get funded as we go forward.
Kevin: But it's really, you know, when you really think of it, it's it's kind of really targeting that active producer too, you know, we're not out there to take every piece of crop land out of production. We want these guys on the landscape, but we also want to try to work with them on those areas that they can do some improvements and provide some habitat. And like I said, if everybody did a little bit, it would add up, you know, and um.
Cayla: That's what I'm excited for. Yeah. It's like even if there was not another acre of access with it, it makes all the acres of access we do have that much better.
Kevin: Yeah.
Cayla: Um, I can't tell you how many times like, you're driving down a section line to get to a PLOTS tract, and there's, like, roosters flying to this little slough over here, and then, like, they get pushed, like, if there was just little pieces of grass that'll still ultimately make the places you do have access to better. Yeah.
Kevin: No doubt. Yeah. And then the other thing too is, I mean, I and I, you know, we heard this from a lot of the landowners that we talked to that um, just because they don't have land and PLOTS, it doesn't mean that it's not, you know, hunting is not allowed. You know, there's still people that are willing to let you know if you come knock on a door and you drive up by that plot or, you know, on your way to that plot and there's roosters coming across the road, you might knock on that door and he might let you on. Just want to know who's out there. So. But yeah, it's not a requirement for PLOTS. But we're going to encourage it. Incentivize it as well too.
Cayla: I also like that. I mean that's probably why they wanted shorter contracts. But like in theory it could work out that it's like I'm going to put this into grass for five years to improve the soil health. And then I'm going to take it out and put it into crop production, because that's what it was intended to do. And then we get like the best five years out of that, because beyond that, it's starting to get not that great anyways. And then maybe they're like, I was happy with that program. Let me put this other piece into.
Kevin: Or I'll keep it in for another five years.
Kevin: Yeah, I just got the grass established. It's doing its thing now. I don't want to go rip it up and start all over. And, um, you know, I think that'll play out that way. I do think, I mean, we see that with the PLOTS program where people have. I only want a two year agreement, but they've been in for 20 years.
Cayla: Yeah.
Kevin: They just keep renewing it because they're happy with it, but they also want that flexibility. So um, that's that's fine. You know, that's again that's if that's what works for people. Yeah. By all means. Yeah. Why not. You know so.
Casey: Still habitat on the ground.
Kevin: Mhm.
Kevin: Yeah. But again that one just got submitted here November 1st. And uh so. Well Halloween I guess Halloween. So um we'll see where that comes out the other end. And there's some other really good OHF, um, projects that we're involved into. Um, Ducks Unlimited has a really good wetland restoration, um, and access incentive, um, uh, proposal going forward. So if somebody has um, existing PLOTS or, um, that could use wetland restorations, that'll be, you know, funding for that. And then if people are not in PLOTS and they want to do wetland restorations, there's incentives to get into the PLOTS program that way too. So those are important. We overlook a lot of our wetlands. A. A lot of times we spend a lot of time on talking about grass, but, um, we need to do more for wetlands. And so that was something we started talking with them about, um, you know, right after the summit as well. And, and they jumped on board right away. And so that'll be a good one to see how that comes out the other end. And then internally here we've got a neat one that's again kind of unique. But it's for the Turtle Mountain area. Um for private forest land. You know that's something we don't focus on a lot in North Dakota, but that's a pretty unique part of the state. And and we want to see some of those acres protected and managed as well too. So we've got a grant in there that would offer a a longer term protection, um, element with some cost share to do some management and then additional incentives for public access there too.
Casey: Yeah and when we're, when we're talking about that forest management, it's mainly Aspen management. And we've kind of done some proving of how that can be done with North Dakota Forest Service and Game and Fish working on some of our own lands. And now we're trying to expand it to those privately owned forests to see if we can't.
Kevin: Yeah, we're kind of co-applicants with the Forest Service on that. They're going to play a role in the management side of things. And so yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that one is received as well. But I'm kind of excited about that one. We've worked with the Forest Service on what they call a landscape forest stewardship plan. And so for the whole Turtle Mountain region, they have a a bigger planning effort that went into play there and, um, took stakeholder input. And so this is kind of neat to see a plan get done and completed. And then now put it into action. Yeah. Other than just sitting on a shelf like some plans end up doing.
Casey: Right.
Kevin: So, um, yeah, there's other good ones in there too, though. I mean, it's not just I mean, those are just a couple that I can highlight that we've been in touch with. And, um, some other ones that came out of the last round, too, that, um, Pheasants Forever put in um, expanding the The PATH program, public access to hunting. And that's basically an additional incentive from PF and OHF to incentivize access and habitat on PLOTS. And so that agreement just got signed this a week ago. Believe it or not. So that'll hit the ground here now. So we'll be able to start utilizing those dollars to incentivize additional PLOTS acres. So lotta partnerships out there.
Casey: Yeah. And I would say too that we're I mean OHF is is one of the grant possibilities. And us and other partners are exploring a whole network of potential grants and stuff. And so yeah, just trying to double our monies or, or match dollars wherever we can.
Kevin: Yeah. That's it's always been kind of the name of the game, but more now than now, more than ever, I guess, you know, because money's getting a little tight and things cost more and just the way things are these days. So if we can leverage and partner, that's always better that way.
Casey: But yeah. Well, and another thing that gets talked about a lot ever since it started was we have the parcel layer that our posting system is planted on And and everybody was kind of I remember when the conversations were happening about how this would work and what would happen. There was a lot of what we could do this with it. We could do those these types of things to maybe open some more access. Um, at one time, there's a, there's a stoplight coloration they were talking about, you know, um, but there is some opportunities with that. Interestingly, we're the only state in the nation that has an entire parcel layer for the entire state hooked together like this that's usable on a statewide basis. And so we've been looking at some opportunities with that. At this point, you can go on and post your land, but that's about it. And so yeah.
Kevin: Again options one of the I guess, little committees that was formed after this was um, taking a look at that, like, what could we do with E-posting, um, like you said. Okay. So we've heard about what other options are available and, and, um, you know, without getting into all the details, we one of the things that came out the other end of the discussions, again with, you know, we floated it by that landowner and hunter access stakeholder group to and so, um, but one of those, uh, ideas that came out of it was more like customized dates, you know? So, um, because we know landowners sometimes only post for certain dates or certain species or certain reasons, but the option right now only allows it to be posted the entire season so.
Casey: And we've heard it a lot from them. Like, for example, I would let most people go or all people go after deer season's over for late pheasant season or whatever that is. And but they would have they could go back on and and post their land. Right. But that's a whole nother step. And so we're looking to help out and maybe facilitate some of that stuff a little better.
Kevin: Yeah. So what I guess what it boils down to is maybe just giving an option to kind of stand it on its head and say you have some options to choose when you want to post instead of just the whole season. And so What? Like you said, one of the things that was most talked about was after deer gun season, you know, that's a pretty easy hard break, you know? Yeah. And, um, and it's always been that way. I mean, it really has I want to get my dear first. And anybody else can hunt or, you know, that type of thing. So that might be something we look at, but um, or or by months even, you know, maybe that's another thing. Um, we did hear, though, that if we present too many options that it might.
Cayla: It's too cumbersome.
Kevin: Too cumbersome, and people just say, oh, the heck with it, I'll just do it. The whole posting thing again. Um, so we'll probably end up starting off with a couple options like that. Like either after deer gun or up till deer gun it's posted, or during deer gun, only some predefined dates. Or maybe like we talked about, maybe by the month or something like that, post it through October 1st or through November 1st.
Casey: Or yeah, many people might not care if somebody dove hunts or grouse hunts.
Cayla: Or not until October 1st.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah. So yeah.
Casey: Yeah, I think that would be, you know, give them a few options as it and as they request other options, then we can, you know, look at how things might be done.
Cayla: But yeah, a couple of things I want to like reiterate. Well, one, that group met, I don't know, biweekly, monthly.
Casey: You’re on that group, right?
Cayla: Uh yeah, um, just so like if you can think of it, we discussed it and there's just a lot of complications to it. And, um, you know, on both sides for the hunter and the landowner and, um.
Kevin: And enforcement.
Cayla: And enforcement. Yeah. So like one of of course, the obvious question is, why can't I just go in and turn it on, turn it off, turn it on, turn it off. But these data layers are massive. And every time, um, of course, not everyone uses onX, but a lot of people are utilizing onX, and onX isn't updating that entire statewide. I mean, it's drawing. This map is like building this whole statewide map by parcel. Um, and so they're only doing that once or twice in the fall. And so we like we wouldn't be able to provide that information as dynamically yet. Um, I feel like we could we likely the way technology is headed, we could get there. Um, but we didn't. We wanted to make sure we aren't sticking anyone with like, oh, I checked it and I'm good to go. And now tomorrow it's actually posted, and, uh, you unknowingly trespassed. Um, and so, yeah, I think we just like, also the data will catch up and the technology will catch up. And I think too some of those like things that were discussed back in 2019, 2020, 2021, when this first, I feel like everyone, both the hunters and the landowners are getting more comfortable with the system now and how it works and that it's being complied with. And so I think even if something was discussed back then, it's maybe not off the table now that everyone's a little bit more like used to how it all flows. Um, but yeah. So I think this is just a starting point. That group went down a lot of yeah, a lot of paths. Um, but this was maybe just like one simple step in that direction, and, and we're not closing the door to other.
Kevin: Get into some really nerdy conversations about things that I don't understand like rest services and cache files and all these different things. But it's yeah.
Casey: Maybe these data centers will help crunch it and we'll be faster.
Kevin: I think you're right. I think everything will get faster as this matures. But again, starting off with something is going to be better than just the option that they have right now. And so, um, but yeah, the other thing too is, you know, the physical signage thing that's still out there, you know, if it's only only posted a certain date range, but you go out there after that and it's, it says electronically that it's open, but you go out there and there's a physical poster. You still have to abide by that physical poster. And so we have to address some of that in the, in the I guess when you look at it on onX or whatever it would be, you'd have to look at those attributes and see that that's out there. And so we're working through all that. And again, that's that's not just a hunter landowner thing. That's an enforcement thing. So right. Got to be careful about how we do it. But um, but yeah, that's one of the, the main things that we're looking at and, and we're working on it right now because, you know, e-posting opens up in February, I believe. Right?
Cayla: Yep. February 1st.
Kevin: So that's a that's not very far away
Casey: Right, yeah. Unfortunately it's not very far away.
Kevin: And, uh.
Cayla: And we also want to be mindful of, like you said, not you start to offer. Well, one, it just gets really cumbersome if it's like from September 1st till September 30th, I'm fine if you hunt upland birds, but then I don't want you hunting pheasants. So from October 1st to October 31st, like, it just gets to be like we're not really providing anything if we get so into the weeds. Um so yeah it's just been a balance of.
Kevin: Yeah. And one thing that I thought was kind of simple to start with was, well, if those are designated differently or they're, you know, they're, they're not all posted all year. So they're different. So they should be marked differently or designated differently with different color or something. And that seems logical until you start thinking about it. And it's like, well, maybe not because that might become a target for that landowner. Right. And now they're getting really, you know, hit up hard and maybe we don't want that. And and still.
Casey: We're still back in the old PLOTS guide days where we did everything different Kevin.
Kevin: Yeah, but, I mean, there's still some value in finding it on your own to find that good field. You want to go ask permission or you look at it and. Oh, it's it's open after this date and I can access it that way. Or you can still go call them or knock on doors or whatever you want to do if you want. But, um, yeah, you're right. Caleb, we've talked about almost every angle on this thing, and it seems really easy when someone just throws out, well, why don't you just have the stoplight thing or give me options for this or that, or ducks only and not deer, you know, boy, it it it unravels really quick.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: Right.
Kevin: But it's been good conversations. I mean, it got us somewhere and we got some other options on the table here. I think that, um, again, when we, when we ran it by the Hunter and Landowner Access group, there it was. Yeah. Um.
Cayla: And I think this just opens the door that electronic posting could be used in a way, like now for more than just posting and then, like, again, let it simmer, let people get used to the concept that there could be like details or specifications about the posting and then, you know, in another, once everyone's comfortable with that, um, you can.
Casey: What are we sitting at? Like 14 million acres are posted in there. So we figure if we get 5% of them, that's.
Cayla: 700,000 acres that was the math we ran.
Casey: As much as we've got in the PLOTS program.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: Almost.
Kevin: Yeah. The equivalent of opening another PLOTS program. Yeah, with a couple clicks of the mouse. And so that's meaningful numbers, I guess. And so and I, I mean, again, I, you know, we all probably talked to landowners and you do hear that quite a bit like I will open it after a certain date or, you know, that type of thing. And so I think there'll be some takers on it. It just it'll be maybe slow to start, you know, to kind of just like e-posting, you know, kind of grew. Yep. Um, so yeah.
Casey: Just like a new PLOTS tract in a new area. Pretty soon people are standing waiting to see what happens. Is this is it going to pull out or is that going to stay in? Oh man, he's been in. I better check into it.
Kevin: Yep Yeah.
Casey: Yeah. Well, then we've got an interesting thing. This hunt link, which kind of derived from some of the depredation issues that we have, but maybe go into that. I'll let you do it.
Kevin: Yeah. No, I mean it was just another, another one of those features, I guess that's another form of access. You know, I don't you know, I know we've we talk about PLOTS all the time, but the fact of the matter is, is not it's not for everybody. Not every landowner is looking for that, you know. And so, um, and then when we used to have, um, more depredation, you know, damage complaints, you know, people were looking to have some, some harvest on their property. Um, and so we had this antlerless deer, um, access, you know, where landowners could, could matchmaker, matchmaker, matchmaker. You know what we call it? Match.com or.
Casey: Something. Deer. Deer match. Deer hunter match.com.
Kevin: But yeah, that was pretty well received. And it worked. Worked really well to the point where we heard that some landlords got a good relationship with hunters and they just took their name off the list because now they have someone that they trust and they develop that relationship. But it also was for coyotes as well.
Cayla: Coyote catalog.
Kevin: Catalog. And so those two things kind of merged into this, right. Like the hunt link is now kind of the catch all for whatever species.
Casey: And we had some of those things like turkey depredation is like, hey, send me hunters. And so a lot of the stuff we were doing manually.
Kevin: Right.
Casey: In the department, you know, keeping a list, people remember the old elk list we used to have, you know, and.
Cayla: Well and even just, um, so for the antlerless wants there's a list of landowners that want antlerless deer harvest. Um, because I like, helped Jackie with all the emails, but like it starts out during the youth season. So we send an email to all the people with youth tags and those units that have those. And then, yeah, it's sort of cumbersome to be like, okay, you guys are going to get this person's name and contact information. It doesn't mean that you have.
Kevin: Right.
Cayla: Access, you need to contact them. But then like the last two years, we've hit like after the youth deer season, and these guys or landowners are like, I still need antlerless deer harvest. Nobody either. Nobody reached out. Not enough people reached out. Nobody. Not enough deer were harvested. Um. And so now we've been doing this where we send it to anyone with an antlerless tag prior to the deer gun season. But now that you're talking a ton of people. So we, like, run a little lottery for who gets the contact information. And it's a lot of like work where now we've just got this map.
Casey: Tried to make it automated.
Cayla: Yeah. Where it has a land, a parcel highlighted, um.
Kevin: With the species.
Cayla: With the species they're looking for their name and contact. And then at any point they can go turn that off if they're like, I'm good.
Casey: Um, and for those out there listening, we still have landowners that want deer harvested. Even though our deer population is low. It's not the same everywhere.
Cayla: And while it's obviously kind of started or came from the depredation, I think it has the functionality to serve for other purposes too. Yeah, like if you're like, I would really love to host some youth. It could have a youth. I think that's one of the options.
Casey: Yeah, I think is on there. Yeah.
Cayla: I think we've opened up several options on there. Or if you're just like, yeah, I don't care if anyone comes and hunts pheasants, I just deer hunt. Um, so I think it has the potential to be more and maybe better serves that sort of species specific stuff than the electronic posting does.
Kevin: And it's just a matching tool. There's no payment involved. It's just another feature. And landowners just go into their my account like where they go for their tags or licenses or whatever. And there's a feature on the bottom of the page there that says they can do a landowner hunter request or something like that. I think so.
Casey: Well, I think one thing that's going to do, too, for landowners is that, you know, we hear all the time, we get so many phone calls, right, people. And and I think if people saw their thing on the map and they said, we want deer hunters and turkey hunters.
Kevin: Mhm.
Casey: They'll probably be less calls for the other stuff. Yeah. Like just intuitively they're going well. The landowner said they want these, they may or may not want the other ones. But you're probably less likely to ask until you develop a relationship with them.
Cayla: Yeah, or you develop a relationship antlerless deer hunting and you're helping them out and then. Yeah, who knows?
Kevin: That's what I mentioned earlier. Like when we're talking like access PLOTS is not required on that larger OHF grant, you know, but we can still talk to them about things like this. You know, you can still get access in other ways, and and you're just connecting people is all you're doing. And then it's up to them, you know. And that one is more dynamic though, like we talked about like onX not being able to upload and download or, you know, or update stuff as quick. This is pretty dynamic because it's, I don't know, smaller maybe.
Cayla: Yeah. It's just it's not building all the like imagery and parcel layer data. It's a lot more like simplified of a map. Um, and it's not I don't think it's it's just like all the landowner has to do is pick one of the parcels they own. So we're not trying to, like, divvy out every little parcel. It's just like, this is the person's name. They'll tell you where they want you to go or, um, so yeah, it's just a little bit less data load.
Kevin: Sounds good. I'll believe.
Casey: You. Yeah, yeah.
Cayla: I mean, I don't know I can't really speak the lingo either.
Kevin: You put a number.
Cayla: And the rest services and the.
Kevin: Coming. Yeah.
Casey: Yeah. Well, yeah, I think like when you think of the general overall this is going to get really deep here. But like the overall um posting layer it's got.
Kevin: Yeah.
Casey: They're pulling everything from the county tax parcels, landowner names all that stuff. And like in this deal for one there's not near as many things highlighted on it, Um, to pull. But we're also not pulling all that background layer up right. To display everything.
Cayla: Yep.
Kevin: That's live.
Cayla: It is, yeah. So it is live now. Um, I there's only a handful. We haven't really there's been a lot of discussions about how to best communicate and promote it. Um, but yeah, so there's not a ton of traction and there's been a little bit of chicken or the egg, like, we don't want landowners to sign up and then be disappointed that nobody contacted them, and vice versa. We don't want to start pointing a bunch of hunters there when there's only ten landowners on there. So, um, but yeah, we're still kind of rolling it out a little bit.
Cayla: Yeah, yeah. And then I guess...
Kevin: That habitat, I think I've called it something different every time I.
Cayla: The habitat and access stakeholder group.
Kevin: But it's we broke the state into four different quadrants. And um, and then we have three hunters and three landowners from each of those quadrants, I guess, you know, for but um, but yeah, that was the idea is bring some hunters in, get their perspectives on these things that we're talking about, you know, whether they like this e-posting change or whether they like this hunt link, you know, um, um, and PLOTS and all these different things we've been talking about and get the perspectives of the landowners, too. And so, um, we did it here in October and we, you know, that wasn't probably the ideal time for some ag producers and for hunters either either. But, um, the idea is to kind of start doing that on an annual basis and get some information out in more of an information sharing and feedback, not necessarily like an advisory group or they're not really making decisions, but we're just using them as a sounding board, I guess, to get ideas, um, bounced off of them and feedback that way. So, um, and it did. It worked that way. It worked pretty well, even given it was a kind of a time crunch to get them pulled together. We were short a couple hunters and landowners on each of them, I think, but that was just because harvest was in full swing and things were busy. And, um, maybe we'll adjust the times next time or something. But then the other, um, after this is to pull them all together in Bismarck here for a bigger meeting with all those different quadrants in the same room. Because what you hear about in Dickinson is a lot different than what you hear about in Devils Lake, you know? And so, um, different issues, different habitat challenges and just different landscapes. And so it'd be good for everybody to hear that together shows the different challenges that we have to balance out as an agency. So.
Casey: Yeah, and I went to a couple of them and they really the conversations were really good. They, you know, when you have that little bit smaller group, you can really get into the details. And how might this work and not work for each, um, kind of side and, and work together to figure out a solution versus just chirping at each other in a big meeting somewhere.
Cayla: Well, and it's nice we have, like, things to run by them and not just like, so, what's the issue? You know like that could just go nowhere.
Kevin: Right. We we wanted to do that, keep it pretty much dialed in to certain topics. Otherwise you just get squirreled and then you're we're not getting anything out of anything, so. And it worked pretty well that way. And I think everyone understood that and appreciated it. There was still time for some open discussion, but tried to keep that, keep it to our topics and, and um, it worked well. Um, a lot of work goes into those things. So we really appreciate those people that did sign up. If you're listening out there to, to help with that. Um, we're not sure going forward how we'll do that. You know, I think we'll, um, see different people come and go from those. You know, we don't want people on there forever, but be nice to keep some consistency there too, you know, maybe have a couple people rotate out and then some new people come in or whatever or stay on that type of thing. But, um, it was just a start. You know, it's something we wanted to kind of get started and really helped. Again. Some of it helped solidify what we were already thinking. Then. We also had some other ideas that came out of this, you know, questions that we hadn't thought about. And, um.
Casey: So we had changed a couple things in the grant application for that OHF grant because of these groups. So.
Kevin: Or even this e-posting discussion, you know, you just you just hear a different perspective. You know, we kind of get used to hearing ourselves talk about it all the time. And you get it out to the public and pretty soon there's something you haven't thought of. So that's been good. Yeah, yeah, a lot of stuff going on. Um.
Casey: But the plan is to have another habitat and access summit sometime in 2026.
Cayla: Yeah, Kevin's working on it so.
Casey: Not 100% sure when it's going to be exactly.
Kevin: I think Nate Harling has the moose meatballs all lined up.
Cayla: Perfect.
Kevin: Yeah. Him and his wife ended up.
Casey: His wife had a tag. Yeah.
Cayla: Perfect.
Kevin: Yeah, I think he's still butchering that thing he's been working on it for like a week.
Casey: I think so.
Kevin: No, but. No. Yeah. Plans are in place for something. We just don't have specifics yet. But we'll have a lot more to discuss. I think we'll have some good results to, um, present and then hopefully some new things as well.
Casey: And kind of trying to figure out how we're going to run it. Or do we run it the same way? Do we? At one time we talked about breaking up into having it longer and breaking up into kind of work groups and things like that, and I don't know if that's appropriate. Depends on where we're at with some of this stuff, probably at that time. But we got a little more time to plan it this time than last time. It's kind of a shotgun.
Kevin: We'll be coming up against the legislative session too, so who knows what we, you know, propose for bills at that time. Maybe something will spin off from these things we're talking about that'll turn into a bill. That's one of the things that I know. We talked about that a lot. Like at the summit, hunters are saying, well, what can I do? You know, what can I support? You know, well, maybe there'll be a bill that comes out of this to support a soil health and habitat program, for example. You know, that'd be that'd be that'd be pretty neat. You know, if we could get something like that and then hunters and landowners could all get behind that and knowing that it was, you know, collaboration involved and that a lot of people were behind it. So that'd be that'd be the end goal.
Casey: Yeah. It would.
Cayla: All right. A lot of great information, Kevin.
Kevin: A lot of great information.
Cayla: I wonder if Mike gets sick of that.
Kevin: Yeah, I'm sure he does.
Cayla: All right. We'll get into the department droppings. So deer season runs through November 23rd. Make sure to be safe when you're out there. Follow regulations. Yeah. Enjoy.
Casey: And we're also running some CWD surveillance in the northwest quarter of the state. So if you're hunting up in that country, um, and interested in giving us a sample, you can go on our website and look where there's some drop off locations or get a self-sampling kit.
Cayla: Advisory board meetings. Many of them have been held, but still a few after this airs, so districts one, six and eight will still. So if you haven't made it to one or interested in going to one, check out those locations on our website.
Casey: Yeah. And get out and and enjoy. What is this?
Cayla: I just threw one on there like despite all of these.
Casey: Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Despite all these habitat and access, uh, issues that are going on, there's still some opportunities out there to enjoy. So get out and finish out the season strong and enjoy some outdoor activities now that we've. I'm really struggling here. Now that we've dropped the droppings, you can get off the pot and get outdoors.
Kevin: Go hunting.
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