In this episode of NDO Podcast, we visit with Logan Weyand, Department wildlife veterinarian, about what EHD is, this year’s outbreak, and what research opportunities are in play for trying to better understand this complex disease system and work towards mitigation options.
Cayla: Welcome to episode 109 of the NDO podcast. On this episode, we have Dr. Logan Weyand back on with us. So I think when I was looking at this, it was like a year ago-ish.
Casey: Already. Been a year?
Cayla: I know. Yeah. Right after you started.
Casey: Yeah. Good work.
Cayla: We're gonna talk about. I'm not gonna try to say it. I'll just not say it, but EHD, maybe I'll try epizootic hemorrhagic disease.
Casey: Nice.
Cayla: Yeah. Just kind of dive into what it is. What we've seen in North Dakota. What we're seeing across the country. Obviously if you're a hunter or have been tuning in. We've had some cases this year. So we'll get a little into that and then some of the new things we're doing just to try to learn a little more about it. But yeah, I guess yeah, we had a whole episode with Logan. So if you want the deep dive on his background, go back and listen to that. But yeah, I don't know anything else to add or now that you've been on now, you know, everything, been on a year.
Casey: Just happy to make the first year.
Logan: Yes.
Cayla: Yeah. Well, I guess we'll we can just dive in with yeah. What is EHD? And then now I notice we changed on our website everything to just HD so just hemorrhagic diseases. So yeah. Kind of the differences there in one’s we see.
Casey: We've got one that a lot of people call bluetongue, like a lot of people will call it bluetongue, which is related, but I'll let you go into all that.
Logan: Yeah. So this is a good distinction between so using the word hemorrhagic disease or EHD or BTV. So really HD just stands for hemorrhagic disease. And then there is in North America in big game species basically we can see epizootic hemorrhagic disease which is EHD. And we can see bluetongue virus which is BTV. The two viruses are very closely related. And they're both in the same family. And then the clinical impacts on the animal are basically indistinguishable, but they are slightly genetically different viruses.
Cayla: I don't think I mentioned when I introduced him also that if you haven't gathered this, he's our department wildlife veterinarian. But I don't think I said that
Casey: Well you called him doctor.
Cayla: Well, I said doctor. Yeah, but
Casey: So what do we typically have EHD right? Like we don't get bluetongue very often in our wildlife.
Logan: Yeah. In North Dakota. Interestingly, what seems to be detected is EHD in white-tailed deer. There is documentation of bluetongue being detected in North Dakota many years ago. But right now, what we're detecting in the cases we send out samples for testing for has been EHD. And so, it's an interesting question. And some states are finding both. So that's something that we're curious about.
Cayla: I wonder why there's such a, that vernacular is so like ingrained in everybody then.
Casey: Well, bluetongue is something that happened in livestock a little more often.
Logan: Mhmm.
Cayla: Okay
Casey: So whether it's the same strain or not, but like that, it kind of has those same symptoms. So then being a, a state that has a lot of livestock in it, that just kind of gets thrown around a lot of times.
Logan: Yeah. Yep. I think that's one reason for it for sure. And some states too, like different wildlife species, you might see differences as well. Like I've seen bluetongue virus in bighorn sheep. Well, when I come and work on whitetail deer here, it's mostly EHD so.
Casey: And this is a disease that kills white-tailed deer pretty fast.
Logan: Yes.
Casey: Maybe go into the like what that timeline is maybe on a deer contracts it and.
Logan: Yeah, so it when we see deer mortalities this time of year, so late summer or fall, a lot of the reports are of deer that are one to multiple deer in one location. And that is often due to the acute form of EHD. So when a deer becomes infected, it can die very quickly within say like 1 to 3 days. But there's also forms where they may be able to survive it, but you could still see some effects later on. So it may not always kill every deer that quickly. But a lot of the deaths we are seeing are probably that acute type of it.
Casey: And so when we say hemorrhagic what, what like what's happening in the deer once it gets this virus. Like, you know.
Logan: Yeah. So when the deer getting back to how it spread, so a biting midge that's in the Culicoides genus.
Casey: No-see-ums for those of us on the landscape dealing with them, fencing.
Cayla: I didn't know it was the same thing as no-see-ums, cause I do feel like those have been bad this year. Like, just in like, town.
Casey: Yeah.
Cayla: And that's not normal, but. Okay. Sorry. I didn't know it was the same thing.
Logan: Yeah. No-see-ums, that's the first word I learned for them when I was a kid. And then punkies is a name I've heard too.
Casey: Some other names I won't say on here that go around out in the countryside.
Logan: Yeah. So that that's the vector. And so, when a deer is bit, the virus will go into the lymph system and start to replicate, and eventually that virus will start to reach target organs. And so first of all, one of the effects of being infected is a fever. So many infected deer will get a fever.
Casey: Which is why we find them down by water a lot of times.
Logan: And so then when the virus then starts to target the immune, some cells in the immune system, that creates a cascade of events that can ultimately lead to blood vessels getting inflamed and start to leak fluid out of them. And so that's a lot of, you know, in necropsies, you'll see a lot of fluid within the chest or around the heart. And then third, it can also target the inside of blood vessels. And so that can create hemorrhage where the name, the term hemorrhage comes from.
Casey: Okay.
Logan: Yep.
Casey: So these biting midges maybe go into the life cycle of these little buggers that we can't see, no pun intended.
Logan: So
Casey: It's hard to know the life cycle of a no-see-um.
Logan: It is.
Casey: Put it that way.
Logan: But yeah, no, this is I guess broadly one aspect that's important is they. Their habitat they need for, to complete their life cycle is muddy habitat. So during the summer and this time of year fall, they can go through multiple cycles of breeding and hatching. So. That's one difference from other vectors where maybe there's only one life cycle.
Casey: So as we get like this year's been odd because we've been dry most of the year really up until now. But it's like as those waters recede and those mudflats open up, that's where it starts. Kind of.
Cayla: Yeah. I was gonna say I just the word on the street, if you will, is like in dry years EHD is bad. But yeah, so because of the receding, But then I also was like, generally speaking, I feel like when it's dry, it's also warm. So they also just pull off more life cycles. Or is it mainly the mud or both? Maybe, I don't know.
Logan: Yeah. No, I think there's so many like variables and factors to this whole system that some is becoming more understood where there's still some parts of this that we have questions, but yes, one thought too is the warming temperatures is better for their metabolism and their breeding too. So in addition to the mud, which again, when it's dry, you get those muddy habitats.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: So, so this is something that kind of plays into this as we've seen over the years. It either get worse or goes later into the fall. We need kind of a hard frost to stop the midge life cycle. An interesting thing is some of our folks were at a grazing workshop this week, and one of the researchers was talking about the northern Great Plains up here and saying how over the last 50 years, we've gained 20 growing days. So like then you start. Then my mind goes, oh, that darn little midge has got an extra 20.
Cayla: Probably a whole extra life cycle. I don't know, it can't be that long of a.
Casey: So all these things are playing into each other to make these things pop up or pop up more often.
Logan: Yeah, I'm, I'm really interested about that lengthening of the growing season. And yeah, because from what we understand right now, it really is that frost or that hard freeze that stops this. And if that's not happening.
Casey: Right, and it's not looking like this year, well, by the time this podcast comes out, I'm not sure we'll have one yet.
Logan: Yeah.
Cayla: I think we've had some in some parts of the state.
Casey: Yeah. But not.
Cayla: Last night got close here.
Casey: So the thing is that midge is laying on the ground.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: At night. And that ground has got to freeze.
Cayla: How do you know.
Casey: Yeah. There's no-see-ums. How do you know? Yeah. But like the ground temperature isn't, you're not getting the surface of that temperature.
Cayla: Right.
Casey: Down unless you get in the 20s, probably.
Cayla: Fingers crossed.
Casey: Fingers crossed.
Cayla: Except Logan can't cross his.
Casey: Yeah. Logan's got a bum finger right now, so.
Casey: Nothing to do with veterinary practice.
Logan: Yeah. As far as I know.
Casey: As far as I know.
Casey: So, like I said, this has been happening more often. A lot of people remember the bad one we had back in what, ‘21 along the Missouri River, especially, it was a population of white-tailed deer that was naive to it. And so it and we had a high population. And so, it, it hit him pretty hard and looked pretty bad. This disease has been around for a long time. Like south, southeast part of the United States has had it for over a hundred years. And so, what do we know and what type of we've got some new technologies that we're looking into. What are we trying to learn?
Logan: Yeah. Yeah, you're right about that because EHD has well, hemorrhagic disease has been documented as early as the late 1800s in the US. Bluetongue was first isolated from deer in 1955 and EHD was in 1968. So a little bit afterwards it's, you know, been detected and has caused impacts in deer in many states ranging from Florida all the way northwest to Washington. In some states. And this gets into differences in climates these outbreaks are considered or, or I guess the infections are considered enzootic, meaning there's less of a seasonal cycle. And the outbreaks may not be as severe. But in some of the northern states, for example, there's pretty noticeable severe outbreaks in what some states are seeing as it's becoming more often. And part of that, you know, if it's generally, you know, something that's becoming more of a pattern. It does. There are several factors that are important. And one of those is herd immunity amongst the deer. So that's I'd say a challenge now is just trying to continue documenting and understanding these patterns. And you know, it does also just depend on the populations and how they can handle these mortality events as well. So I think there is growing, I guess, motivation to look for potential solutions and some, some states and regions. And another thing I'll add too is there's different serotypes of HD and bluetongue. And so, changes in those serotypes can, you know, potentially change what we're seeing when it comes to outbreak severity or.
Casey: Or immunity levels.
Logan: Immunity.
Cayla: Yeah, this is probably breaking it, like making it too simplified. But like if there was some built herd immunity from like serotype one from a few years ago, but then we were hit with serotype two, would it not necessarily be like applicable? Yeah. So if the virus changes.
Logan: Yeah.
Cayla: Or disease. Yeah.
Logan: Cause the antibodies may not protect.
Cayla: Okay. Yeah.
Casey: The trick is what we're seeing is all two.
Logan: Right.
Casey: And we're still getting some.
Cayla: This time, or no?
Casey: Pretty much all the times.
Cayla: Okay.
Logan: Okay.
Casey: So we're seeing something, something there is happening that's not quite herd immunity or, you know, I, I think of Cayla and I were talking earlier, like you had in 2021. We had a big outbreak. Well, then we had a really bad winter. Did we lose the ones that had immunity at some level?
Cayla: Yeah, we just lost the.
Casey: Bad winter.
Logan: Right.
Casey: And so now the herd that was slowly growing back really didn't have much of it in it anymore. You know, those are all things we have to try to figure out.
Logan: Yeah. Like confounding factors.
Cayla: What happened before ‘21? Like when do you remember there being the last slightly major EHD outbreak? Or do you know?
Casey: So before 21, what we had typically seen was 5 to 10 years in the southwest. It would kind of ebb and flow.
Cayla: That cause that just feels like probably like the life cycle of that herd’s immunity, if you will. You know, like, okay, they built some immunity. Those deer died.
Casey: Right.
Cayla: And now we kind of have to start over versus this.
Casey: You can correct me if I'm wrong here, Logan, but the mothers that survive can pass it on to their fawns. But over time, like the next fawn from that fawn has lesser and lesser immunity as it goes down the line, or immunity wanes, as you say, as you say, over a period of time. And then you get the outbreak again.
Logan: Yeah. We, I guess for one.
Casey: It's like they need booster shots. Yeah.
Logan: If yeah, if you're talking about like one, 1 or 2 fawns from in one spring, born in one spring there's evidence that there can be. So if the mother has survived EHD, there can be some maternal antibodies passed to the fawns and that that can wane in those fawns. So back to your yeah, booster comment. It's that type of an idea.
Cayla: Well, I think it's passed through the milk, not genetically. So then it's just like once they're done, once they're weaned maybe. Yeah. I think then yeah, they don't have the milk anymore.
Casey: I've never milked a deer. I don't know.
Cayla: If anyone had. I feel like it would be, you.
Casey: No, I haven't done that.
Cayla: Gosh. Yeah. So this time around. Well, I guess so. We have been testing the genetics before to figure out that it's serotype two. Or how did we know that previously.
Casey: Yeah. You go ahead.
Cayla: Or what are we doing that's different this time.
Casey: Test the serotype. But then we're gonna do something else.
Logan: Yeah. So yeah, getting back to, you know, this, this issue is becoming more of a concern, let's say that say that
Casey: And we're not, to go back a little bit, we're not the only state that's seeing a higher reoccurrence either. We've been working with some other states too, but go ahead. Logan.
Logan: Yeah. No, it's and it, and it's interesting because in certain years, like it's worse in one state and not in other state too. That's interesting. But yeah, so in past years here in North Dakota, there has been work to understand the serotype. And so, it has been EHDV2. And so, we did the same thing this year. We in some of our samples, we did the serotyping and also figured out it was EHDV2 this year as well, at least in the samples that have been processed so far, because we're still in the outbreak, basically what we are working towards is wanting to understand this whole disease system better here in the state. You know, hope that maybe better understanding could help, you know, lead us to some potential mitigation options. And so, there's different aspects of this. You could focus on one's the virus another is the vector also trying to understand the immune system could be important too. And, and not to mention habitat and weather too. So there's so many factors, but two well, the first thing that we're diving in deeper to this year is using some new methods to understand more of this virus’s genetics. And so, even within the type twos, how are our viruses say different in North Dakota from type two's in other states, and try to understand some of that because it can change and there are differences. And so that is just important, we think, to get a baseline of, you know, what is this whole genome of this virus looking like this year and then in future years? And if, say, we get a really bad year, you know, it would be helpful to look back and see if there was a change that resulted in that. So and that's also we do need to know what we have for some potential solutions.
Casey: So I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit. And so when you're looking at those serotype genetics, if one year is much different than the next year we have, does that just make it harder to then track this virus down for some sort of mitigation solution type of thing? Because now you've got something that's changing almost faster than you can do anything with.
Logan: Right? Yeah, yeah.
Casey: But if it's the same, then we may be able to concentrate on certain other areas. Yeah. To try to figure something out. Okay.
Logan: Yep. Yeah. So the good news is, right now it's looking like, you know, they're all type two and pretty darn similar.
Cayla: Okay.
Casey: Even across some states that are doing this too. Or are we are the states not doing it yet?
Logan: Just within our state.
Casey: Okay.
Logan: Yeah.
Casey: So what other aspects are we looking at? I know for some reason you're interested in no-see-ums. So you know, I know you've mentioned some stuff about looking into the actual bug that's passing this thing around.
Logan: Yeah.
Cayla: Looking into the no-see-ums.
Casey: Looking into the no-see-ums.
Casey: Looking into never Neverland essentially.
Logan: Yeah, this came up a little later in the season, but one of the potential, you know, opportunities for more research and understanding is also through learning more about the no-see-ums or the midges. So.
Casey: I, I feel. Like that's a good job description. Like we, we're looking for a seasonal that can catch some no-see-ums. Yeah.
Logan: No-see-um tech.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: Right.
Logan: So and so what we know is there's many different species of the no-see-ums and so we.
Cayla: I'm trying to keep.
Logan: Some of those are proven vectors of EHD or bluetongue. Some are not. And so, for a first step some more work on just documenting what we have here for species and their ability to be a vector of this virus is something we want to know. And that could be an exciting area of research.
Cayla: Yeah, how do we know? So we have a list. Someone figured out that these are the ones that are here. And then they all could or several of them could be.
Casey: Trust me, they are in the jar.
Cayla: Oh yeah. But like, how do you know? Okay, like you go out and sample this mud spot. How do you know which ones were the ones that caused this year's.
Logan: Yeah.
Casey: So that's what he's trying to figure out.
Cayla: I know, but like, I don't even know how you begin to answer that, I guess.
Casey: Yeah. And part of that is.
Cayla: This feels like Jurassic Park are we pulling blood out of like, yeah.
Casey: I'm not, I can't see that well anymore.
Logan: Well, first off, I think you have to be a no-see-um specialist, which is not me. Right.
Cayla: I was like, is he kidding?
Casey: Yeah.
Logan: But yeah, there is. Yeah. Okay. Research methods for that. Like a lot of these are getting into the molecular techniques. Okay. In terms, in terms of ways to identify the midge species and also whether the virus is in them.
Cayla: Okay
Logan: And you can even figure out what animal they've taken a blood meal from to. Oh, some of those techniques, which could be really helpful.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: Cause yeah there's the thing. Are, are these things, these no-see-ums overwintering with the virus in their eggs or things like that, and those mudflats, or are the no-see-ums coming out and then biting an animal that has it and passing it on that way. And so that those might require two different types of mitigation efforts to try to reduce it.
Cayla: Yeah, cause they do over winter, right?
Casey: Yeah. Well, they have to. I don't. Yeah, they don't. They move through the wind pretty much.
Logan: Yes.
Casey: We're mostly northwest wind and there isn't a whole lot of it northwest of us.
Logan: Right.
Casey: So they got to be over wintering here. Yeah.
Logan: Resident midges.
Casey: Yeah. Resident midges. Resident no-see-ums. And this technology. I mean, you know, we talk about how EHD has been kind of studied for quite a while, but like some of this technology is ten, 15 years old that we can actually look at some of these things a little differently.
Logan: Yeah, yeah, I'd say so. Yeah.
Casey: So.
Cayla: And then I, I mean, yeah, there's obviously not endless amounts of time and research dollars, but then could you not do like genetics work on the deer too and figure out. I don't know.
Logan: Yeah. Yeah. There's you know, one thing we're going to try to collect this year, especially if hunters are willing to collect it is blood. And we can spin that down to get CRM and look for antibodies to EHD that way, which we would like to maybe start doing long-term, just to see changes in exposure in different regions as well as it gets complicated. But that question of how long antibodies are lasting.
Cayla: Yeah, yeah.
Casey: So you had mentioned any other types of projects we're looking at collaborating with as we get into trying to figure this out a little more.
Logan: Yeah. I'd say for, for now we are working collaboratively with another diagnostic lab and then also another agency too that has some interests in the environmental and vector aspects of EHD. And then other neighbor states too, we, you know, have had some meetings and discussions just about this topic and, and solutions that others may be looking into as well. Yeah, yeah.
Casey: Cuz yeah, South Dakota is having an outbreak right now too. And I know I've had some discussions with some folks from South Dakota at the different meetings. You know, I go to a Central Flyway meeting to talk about EHD, but that's how it works sometimes, you know. And yeah, yeah, I guess potential.
Cayla: We could have started here, but just kind of a general update on like what, what's happening this year, I guess so far in North Dakota or what we're seeing and maybe compare it to the bad year.
Casey: And you've looked at the past year's stuff. So yeah.
Logan: Yeah. Yeah. This year. So we, we are now on October 14th. Our first case was in early August. August. August 8th in a white-tailed doe from Lake Tschida. And she had classic EHD, came back positive. And then, you know, we started getting, I'd say, a trickle of reports in which then really did start to increase all throughout September. This year we are up to the total amount of mortalities of deer, as well as a few pronghorn and mule deer that we've recorded is at 322 deaths. And then that total comes from reports submitted by the public or staff. And that total number of reports is 148. And the hunt units that are most affected at this point are 3F2,3C and 3E1 and 3E2 combined.
Casey: And we have a map of this on our website now. So if folks want to go on and, and take a look at kind of what's going on with EHD, we have some information on the website.
Logan: Yeah. Basically if compared to the 2021 outbreak, that number is magnitudes lower than that outbreak, which was like over 5,000 deaths. And so again, it's mostly been all white-tailed deer, but there have been some pronghorn and mule deer, which we also did see that in 2021 as well.
Casey: I think we actually had a bighorn sheep in 2021 that died of it.
Logan: Yeah. I think Brett mentioned that to me too. So yeah.
Casey: But maybe speak to that a little bit like we've got it obviously affects whitetail deer a lot, a lot more mortality with that. But like typically mule deer, pronghorn, even elk or bighorn sheep aren't succumbing to the disease. But what kind of things have been seen? And because there's some things like some residual effect of them being exposed to it as well.
Logan: I don't know that I can say that one of those species in particular, like is prone to these effects, but in general some other outcomes of infection. And this can even be in livestock too, is I guess to say an animal that has survived it, they can have sloughing of their hoofs. And then also what kind of looks like sores or ulcers on their mouth too or even inside of their rumen too.
Casey: Which, which can happen to any one of these animals if they go under a high fever. Essentially at, at some point for maybe not even aid, but because the aid causes those fevers.
Logan: Yeah. And then another negative impact too, can be on reproduction too. So it can cause some abnormalities in like a, a fetus or some issues with pregnancy too. So. Oh, and one, one obvious one too, that I'm totally missing is that fever, like you're talking about just that inflammation can in males cause issues with testosterone production and fertility as well, which can relate back to them not shedding the velvet. Yeah.
Casey: Okay. Yeah. And that that is one thing that popped up in ‘21. I know in in a lot of other in South Dakota as well as us, it was like people were actually noticing a number of mule deer that still had their velvet on and during rifle season. And they're like, what's going on here? You know, it's like, well, that's one of the effects of testosterone and yeah.
Cayla: Interesting.
Logan: And that's one thing we’re; we're just being thorough about documenting this year is sampling those organs and, and just looking into the whole body too, to just learn what some other non-obvious impacts are that could still be important to a population. So we've been, we've documented that inflammation in the testicles in several cases this year. And then we've also had several recent ones later in the outbreak where they've also had a pretty severe pneumonia on top of inflammation and, and a positive EHD detection. So that's not great either. If there's a predisposition to pneumonia through having a viral infection first so. Yeah. And you know, it can also result in neurologic issues too. Like we've had a few later as well that have been circling. And at least one of those so far has had a really high amount of inflammation in the brain too. Okay. Yep.
Cayla: Well, hopefully by the time this airs, we have gotten a freeze. So yeah, it shouldn't be as bad as 2021 and just not as many, like you said, deer on the landscape this time around either.
Logan: Right. Yeah. The timing of it is, is unfortunate. For sure. Yeah. It's sad. It's a pretty sad disease. Yeah.
Casey: It's, we’d much rather have hunters have the opportunity at them than have the disease wipe them out. But.
Cayla: Yeah. Whether that would ever come into consideration down the road, like knowing, learning more about the virus and like being able to predict like, well, we're gonna lose a bunch. So let's allocate.
Casey: So that's interesting. You say that because the southwest part of the state for years that has because of the 5-to-10-year kind of cycle, which now seems to be even more compressed than it used to be. We knew we couldn't stockpile whitetails.
Cayla: Yeah.
Casey: Down there, like we you could let the herd grow, herd grow to a certain point, and then you're going to lose them to EHD. So and it's weird how this disease works. You can have one, you know, three square mile area that all the whitetails are succumbing to the disease and three miles away, none of them are dying. So like, it's kind of a weird, a weird disease. How spotty patchy it can be on the landscape. And so, we always knew that. So we always were probably less conservative with our whitetail allocation in those areas. I mean, over the last 25 years, just because we knew that was going to be a reoccurring thing. And it's kind of like, well, like I said, we'd rather have hunters harvest them. And the fact that this disease whitetails succumb to it so fast if they're going to die, you know, you kind of there isn't like people aren't shooting sick deer because of this, because they're, you know, succumbing to it really fast and maybe speak to that a little bit like a deer that has had EHD. Of course, there's no reason a hunter has to worry about harvesting that deer.
Logan: Yeah.
Casey: It's the old if it looks healthy, it's healthy kind of thing, you know.
Logan: Yeah, yeah. There's not a known risk of, you know, harvesting a, a deer that has survived EHD. Yeah.
Cayla: So maybe we will.
Casey: Well, at some level we probably will. But it's changing how we allocate because of the compression that's been happening. So it's becoming more often. So you're not building up the herd before it happens you know. And so that's kind of changing the way that our, especially our big game staff, is kind of thinking about how this may all work down. And especially in the southwest.
Logan: Yeah. And it's hard to.
Casey: Until Logan finds the answer.
Logan: Yeah.
Casey: No pressure.
Cayla: You did it. He crossed them.
Logan: But it makes it difficult with the math because there was a lot more deer in 2021. Whitetail deer. And so, you know, if you're trying to scale how bad this year was with last year.
Casey: Right? Yeah, it's a little harder.
Logan: It's a little takes some math there. So.
Logan: Yeah.
Casey: Yeah.
Cayla: Yeah. That's true. Percentage wise or. Yeah. However, you wanna measure it.
Casey: So one thing that I would add is like I'm not I'm not sure it's necessarily a doom and gloom type of situation because like we said in the South and southeast, like they've almost got such a herd immunity down there that it, it doesn't necessarily affect them as harshly. So to speak, because that kind of cycle is happening all the time. The break in our cycle might be what's causing us most of the problem. We get winter freezes, dies off, and then immunity starts to wane. They're not getting their booster bite.
Logan: Yep. Yeah, exactly.
Casey: I mean, essentially.
Logan: Yeah. Yeah. And it, it you're right, because there is evidence in some states that deer you know, it. It's a disease cycle that does happen. And it's not necessarily a doom and gloom situation but also getting back to like what population density you start with matters. And then there's also, I think some changing understanding of the going back to the stereotypes, which if it's all just stays the same, that's one thing. But then if it changes, then you have another problem too. So and then yeah, those climates also are very different to where, like you said it, it's not all your exposure happening. Like for a longer period. It's a pretty distinct point in the year where it's happening. Yeah.
Casey: It's like August and September.
Logan: Yeah.
Casey: In North Dakota all the time. It seems like in that unless we get the late fall like we've got this year, then then it kind of just extends and keeps trickling on.
Logan: Right.
Cayla: But yeah, they just have so many more. I just want to clarify, like deer to work with in the south and southeast part of the country.
Casey: Yeah.
Cayla: So they, even if it is a bad outbreak, it's like they I don't know, can't even give away enough deer tags to.
Casey: Yeah.
Cayla: So different situation than.
Logan: Yeah, we, we feel the effects pretty hard right now. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, there's just, there is a lot of I guess factors to the whole issue across the country that is different depending on where you're at. And so it, I guess one, you know, point that I think is important just to think about is that, you know, it's important to look at the whole picture and as you're thinking about what to do or not do, you know, just it's good to just take a broad look at other states and other populations, and it can be meaningful to try to work towards solutions. And I've seen, you know, success stories, but also it's important to be critical too of whatever you decide to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Casey: And just so everybody listening knows, like, we, we couldn't do this or track this without the help of landowners and hunters that are calling stuff in. And then some, you know, a lot of our staff are running around trying to respond to some of those calls so we can get samples and things to be able to track this or do the genetic testing and some of the, some of the things that might help us into the future. But just a shout out to all those folks that have paid attention on the landscape and given us a shout.
Logan: Yeah, absolutely. And I definitely second that because over time, as we continue to research this here we the number of deaths and reports is going to be an important variable too, especially when it comes to understanding the virus too and changes in the virus. So even when we know we have EHD and when people find dead deer and maybe the a sense might be, oh, we know what it is, maybe I'll don't need to report it. I just want to encourage anyone to report their findings because that'll, that'll add to our totals at the end of the season.
Casey: And we have a new way of sampling that we're doing this year, which is was interesting to me, which in the past it was always we had to try to get them at a certain time frame after they're after the mortality happens, because then the tissue was too far gone. But we're, we're actually doing a different sampling method. And I don't know if you want to talk about that at all, but
Logan: Yeah, no, I'm happy to talk about that. So some tissues inside the body that are good tissues to test for EHD in is spleen, lung, liver. Those organs get a lot of blood and they're a good place to find it in. But in some cases, you only find a skeleton or it's extremely decomposed because it's hot. So one other.
Casey: So everybody knows this is not necessarily a fun smelling job when you.
Logan: Yeah.
Cayla: We have yeah. Well, we have a whole episode with the previous vet on smells.
Logan: Yeah. So there is you know, you can also find this virus in bone marrow. And so, if we get a, the femur is a really good bone we can, in cases where it has been quite a while, get that femur, submit bone marrow to the lab and test for EHD through the bone marrow from the femur. And that can be the considerable amount of time after that deer has died too. So it can be very helpful. The one thing we just need to keep in mind is we don't have the full carcass in front of us and all the organs. So it's good to know if it is there, but it is also important to just know there could also have been other factors that we are missing.
Casey: Right? Yeah, it could have. It could have been a deer that would have survived EHD and still have the virus in it. If we don't know, if we don't have the rest of the carcass, but.
Logan: Right, right.
Casey: But it starts to paint the picture when somebody calls and said, “I found one, you test it and it's positive.” And now there's two more. It's like, okay, you probably don't. It’s good to document those, but we don't need to spend the extra money necessarily unless we need more samples for a different reason to determine if those are EHD or not, because more than likely they are.
Logan: Right? Right.
Casey: Yeah.
Logan: And that bone, that test is quantitative. So you, you are getting to know how much of the virus was there. So that's helpful if it's just a femur. Yeah.
Casey: New technologies. Maybe we'll be able to figure this stuff out.
Logan: Yeah. I'm not a fan of new technologies, but I am when it comes to wildlife.
Casey: Yeah. When it helps. Yep. All right.
Cayla: All right. Yeah. Well, thanks for being on. I don't know how Logan has time to build shelves or do anything else that.
Casey: Has time to hurt your finger, but.
Cayla: Yeah I mean.
Casey: I could have seen if it was like, you know, you accidentally cut it doing a necropsy or something, but.
Cayla: Logan's been busy, so.
Logan: Yeah. Thank you. Cayla and Casey, it was great to be here. And this is this is really interesting disease. It's an important problem. And so I'm excited to be here and be working on it, so. Yeah. Thank you.
Cayla: All right, before we get into the department droppings, we're just going to go through the recently, I guess, announced response to EHD.
Casey: Yeah. So with the EHD outbreak maybe a little different than in the, in the past, just based on it seems to be happening more often. And we really want to get down to protecting whitetail deer and does, antlerless deer that are out there. And so, we have eliminated the harvest of antlerless white-tailed deer in a few gun units, four to be exact, 3C,3E1,3E2 and 3F2. So in other words, nobody that holds a tag for those units or a tag that can be used in those units can harvest a whitetail doe as of October 19th. And so that restriction includes all license types, youth, muzzleloader, deer gun, deer bow and gratis. Those folks that have any licenses, like in any antlerless or an any antlered can still utilize those for mule deer or any antlered could shoot a whitetail buck or a mule deer buck. There just can be no harvest in those four units of whitetail does. So the antlerless whitetail deer gun license for those units essentially are no longer valid. We didn't have very many licenses for those units. I think there was, what, 350 total. One of the units didn't even have any licenses, 3C for antlerless whitetail.
Cayla: Yeah, actually quite a of there was 350 allocated. Of those, quite a few were given out as a gratis. So it's like less than 300 that are specifically a whitetail doe.
Casey: Yeah, yeah. So those folks that had antlerless whitetail doe licenses will automatically be refunded their license because they're no longer valid. And then we've got some other things going on if you want to touch on that Cayla.
Cayla: Yeah. So if you're not confused already as we did in 2021, and I think even before that too but so.
Casey: More recently, I think, I believe we did it last year as well.
Cayla: In addition, there are a number of units eligible for tag refunds. And so, I guess I could, yeah, I can list them all out. That does include the four units where we're closing whitetail doe harvest. So people that have other tags in those units that are good for whitetail are also eligible for the returns. But there's a broader footprint where those were kind of the worst four units, but people that have whitetail licenses in 2H, 2I, 3B3, 3C, 3D1, 3D2, 3E1, 3E2, 3F1, 3F2, 4D, 4E and 4F are all in that category of eligible to return a license. Oh as well as the muzzleloader license, since that is a whitetail license, even though it's statewide. That doesn't mean that, like we said, the worst units are the four that we're closing down antlerless whitetail harvest, we have new this year as, as we talked about with Logan, a map of the mortality. So kind of encourage people to see is there, you know, what does that look like in the area they hunt, talk to landowners or contacts. You know that you can still hunt, but if you feel like you'd like to return your tag, you have that option. You need to have it to us before the rifle season opens.
Casey: That's, that's the big thing. People can't go hunt and then decide they don't want it anymore. Because realistically, our, we expect a harvest out of licenses that we sell. But the licenses aren't a guaranteed harvest license ever. And they're more of the opportunity to hunt with the expectation that this many are going to be harvested. So that's why we have you do it, you need to do it before the rifle season starts to be eligible for the refund. Another thing to bring up too is this is in response to an EHD outbreak. This is not say something that we would respond to necessarily because habitat is low and the landscape can't support the carrying capacity of deer. And so, there's a difference. This area has very good potential, very decent habitat in these areas. And the population just needs a little more protection to have the potential to rebound. We have other areas of the state where the population is low. And people may think that we should close the deer season, but that's more in response to the landscape. Really can't handle many more deer on it because of the reduced habitat in some of those areas. And so, there you always just kind of have a small harvest and try to work building that habitat back to bring those critters back. But so yeah, hopefully there's you know, there is still opportunity out there, especially for those folks that have the any antlerless tags. There's still plenty of mule deer in this country. Mule deer aren't as affected from EHD. And typically, you don't see die offs in large numbers of mule deer. And so, the opportunity to still hunt is there. But we encourage people to contact the landowners that they may be hunting on and things like that and just have a conversation with people before you decide to turn in your tag or not.
Cayla: Right. Like we said, this is a pretty broad footprint to account for. Like we said in this episode, we haven't had a freeze, a hard freeze. So to account for this outbreak potentially spreading, but yeah, I wouldn't just automatically refund a tag in one of these. Some of these units have had no detections yet this year. So yeah, I guess do your homework. And the other thing is if you'd like to, if it's applicable, which gets confusing, but basically, if you're turning back a tag that was a first choice tag, and you'd like to donate the license fee, we will not only restore your bonus points, but give you a bonus point as if you had just bought a bonus point back in May instead of.
Casey: Instead of applying.
Cayla: But if it was a second-choice tag, you already got that bonus point. So.
Casey: So yeah, the best thing there is if you're interested in knowing what's going to happen if you turn in that tag to your bonus points in the system, give our licensing section a call and they'll walk you through and be able to look up the exact tag you're dealing with when you got drawn for it. If it was your first choice, your second choice, your second unit choice, whatever that might mean that they can walk you through that.
Cayla: Yeah. And lots of daily added information, but all this information is on the website right there on the home page link to frequently asked questions, the map of the units we just talked about the mortality map, all those things. All right, now we'll get into the other department droppings. So advisory board meetings are happening coming up so check the website for your local meeting or if you can't make yours another nearby one.
Casey: Yeah. And deer rifle season opens on November 6th at noon. And so, make sure you open the license you got and know what it is for sure before you go out and just be safe out there and have a good rifle season.
Cayla: This actually isn't on here, but I just noticed too several, there's quite a few counties, again, with the lack of a freeze that still kind of have some relevant restrictions because of fire. So yeah, just check ND Response for some of those things. If you're camping, whether it's campfires or off-road travel. Yeah.
Casey: Yeah. And we're doing an aging study on harvested deer. And so, if you would consider submitting your deer lower jawbones you can get on our website and request a packet for that to be able to request the materials that you can store that in and gives you a little more directions on what to do. But another way we're kind of looking at the potential to model our deer population and figure things out throughout our deer population. And then also we are doing CWD sampling again in the extreme southwest. If you're interested in turning in a sample, you can get on our website and look to see where those locations are or how you may be able to help us get one of those samples. But there's also self-sampling kits I believe that you can request online as well.
Cayla: Lots of maps.
Casey: Lots of maps. You can get bogged down in maps. All right, now that we've dropped the droppings, you can get off the pot and get outdoors.